Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [elfscript] Tengwar modes used in Third Age Middle-earth

Expand Messages
  • Danny Andriës
    ... Gildor has given some good answers (and you can find more information in his excellent essay on the Gwaith-i-Phethdain website), but I can expound a bit
    Message 1 of 5 , Apr 8, 2002
      Teithant psalm19us:

      >I have a question about Tengwar as it was used in Tolkien's world.

      Gildor has given some good answers (and you can find more information in his
      excellent essay on the Gwaith-i-Phethdain website), but I can expound a bit
      with my own theories. CAUTION: Note the word THEORIES!

      >From what I can determine there were two predominant modes for
      >Sindarin in the Third Age � The Mode of Beleriand and the vowel tehta
      >mode (I don't know a better name for that one yet.)

      Probably more than two.

      >I have read that
      >the Mode of Beleriand is considered the mode that would have been
      >used in Rivendell in the Third Age. So wouldn't that mode then have
      >been used by the other Elves of Middle-earth also

      I think the full-writing modes (not just for Sindarin, and not just the Mode
      of Beleriand) were used in the Northern parts of Middle Earth, so the Mode
      of Beleriand would have been used by the Elves of Rivendell, Hollin and the
      Grey Havens.

      >Or would they likely have used the other mode?

      I doubt that Elves would have used the mode you're referring to. The tehta
      mode we have attested is more likely a Mannish mode used by the D�nedain of
      Arnor to write Sindarin. I think the Elves of Mirkwood and Lothl�rien might
      have used a tehta mode that differed in one significant detail: it probably
      used Series III for the velars rather than Series IV.
      >
      >Was the vowel tehta mode associated with Gondor? Aragorn uses that
      >or a similar mode in the King's letter, and as he was educated in
      >Rivendell I wondered if that mode represented an Elven form or a form
      >of Gondor?

      The tehta mode used in KLIII was probably a mannish mode used by Gondorians
      for Sindarin. Tolkien suggests indirectly in App. E that the people of
      Gondor used a tehta mode. KL I and II used a full-writing mode (possibly
      originating in Arnor?), probably so that Sam and his family could read it
      more easily.
      >
      >As Westron was the Common Tongue at that time in Middle-earth, what
      >form of writing was used in general for Westron?

      In the Shire, probably tengwar of the full-writing mode used for the English
      portion of the King's Letter, considering this was meant to represent the
      Westron translation. Remember that Elanor could read the translation.
      Full-writing because the Shire is in the north. Ditto among the Northern
      Rangers. As mentioned above, those in Gondor probably used a tehta mode. The
      Rohirrim and the men of Dale used a simple version of the cirth (runes).

      These are just my thoughts ... some will doubtlessly disagree!

      Cuio mae, Danny.




      _________________________________________________________________
      Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
    • psalm19us
      ... information in his ... expound a bit ... tehta ... the Mode ... the Mode ... and the ... So was this full writing mode of Arnor the one referred to as the
      Message 2 of 5 , Apr 10, 2002
        --- In elfscript@y..., "Danny Andriës" <tegilbor@h...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Teithant psalm19us:
        >
        > >I have a question about Tengwar as it was used in Tolkien's world.
        >
        > Gildor has given some good answers (and you can find more
        information in his
        > excellent essay on the Gwaith-i-Phethdain website), but I can
        expound a bit
        > with my own theories. CAUTION: Note the word THEORIES!
        >
        > >From what I can determine there were two predominant modes for
        > >Sindarin in the Third Age – The Mode of Beleriand and the vowel
        tehta
        > >mode (I don't know a better name for that one yet.)
        >
        > Probably more than two.
        >
        > >I have read that
        > >the Mode of Beleriand is considered the mode that would have been
        > >used in Rivendell in the Third Age. So wouldn't that mode then have
        > >been used by the other Elves of Middle-earth also
        >
        > I think the full-writing modes (not just for Sindarin, and not just
        the Mode
        > of Beleriand) were used in the Northern parts of Middle Earth, so
        the Mode
        > of Beleriand would have been used by the Elves of Rivendell, Hollin
        and the
        > Grey Havens.

        So was this full writing mode of Arnor the one referred to as the
        Northern mode?


        > >Or would they likely have used the other mode?
        >
        > I doubt that Elves would have used the mode you're referring to.
        The tehta
        > mode we have attested is more likely a Mannish mode used by the
        Dúnedain of
        > Arnor to write Sindarin. I think the Elves of Mirkwood and
        Lothlórien might
        > have used a tehta mode that differed in one significant detail: it
        probably
        > used Series III for the velars rather than Series IV.

        Thanks to you and Gildor Inglorion you for your input!
        This is very, very interesting! What evidence do we have of this
        Wood-elven tehta mode?
        There are several other differences between the Gondorian mode and
        the mode of Beleriand besides the Series III/Series IV difference you
        mentioned. Is there any information as to which mode the wood-elven
        form would follow more closely? I would guess the mode of Beleriand.

        If full writing modes were favored in the North, it seems odd that
        the Elves of Mirkwood would choose to utilize a vowel tehta mode. But
        then, the leaders of both Mirkwood and Lórien were somewhat at odds
        with the Noldor and might have chosen something different for that
        reason - however the tehta modes harkened back to the Quenya mode,
        and it seems unlikely they would go that direction. I would like to
        learn more about this!

        > >Was the vowel tehta mode associated with Gondor? Aragorn uses that
        > >or a similar mode in the King's letter, and as he was educated in
        > >Rivendell I wondered if that mode represented an Elven form or a
        form
        > >of Gondor?
        >
        > The tehta mode used in KLIII was probably a mannish mode used by
        Gondorians
        > for Sindarin. Tolkien suggests indirectly in App. E that the people
        of
        > Gondor used a tehta mode. KL I and II used a full-writing mode
        (possibly
        > originating in Arnor?), probably so that Sam and his family could
        read it
        > more easily.
        > >
        > >As Westron was the Common Tongue at that time in Middle-earth, what
        > >form of writing was used in general for Westron?
        >
        > In the Shire, probably tengwar of the full-writing mode used for
        the English
        > portion of the King's Letter, considering this was meant to
        represent the
        > Westron translation. Remember that Elanor could read the
        translation.
        > Full-writing because the Shire is in the north. Ditto among the
        Northern
        > Rangers. As mentioned above, those in Gondor probably used a tehta
        mode. The
        > Rohirrim and the men of Dale used a simple version of the cirth
        (runes).
        >
        > These are just my thoughts ... some will doubtlessly disagree!
        >
        > Cuio mae, Danny.
        >

        >
        >
        > _________________________________________________________________
        > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
        http://messenger.msn.com
      • psalm19us
        ... information in his ... expound a bit ... tehta ... the Mode ... the Mode ... and the ... Thanks to you and Gildor Inglorion for responding! So was this
        Message 3 of 5 , Apr 10, 2002
          --- In elfscript@y..., "Danny Andriës" <tegilbor@h...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Teithant psalm19us:
          >
          > >I have a question about Tengwar as it was used in Tolkien's world.
          >
          > Gildor has given some good answers (and you can find more
          information in his
          > excellent essay on the Gwaith-i-Phethdain website), but I can
          expound a bit
          > with my own theories. CAUTION: Note the word THEORIES!
          >
          > >From what I can determine there were two predominant modes for
          > >Sindarin in the Third Age – The Mode of Beleriand and the vowel
          tehta
          > >mode (I don't know a better name for that one yet.)
          >
          > Probably more than two.
          >
          > >I have read that
          > >the Mode of Beleriand is considered the mode that would have been
          > >used in Rivendell in the Third Age. So wouldn't that mode then have
          > >been used by the other Elves of Middle-earth also
          >
          > I think the full-writing modes (not just for Sindarin, and not just
          the Mode
          > of Beleriand) were used in the Northern parts of Middle Earth, so
          the Mode
          > of Beleriand would have been used by the Elves of Rivendell, Hollin
          and the
          > Grey Havens.


          Thanks to you and Gildor Inglorion for responding!
          So was this full writing mode of Arnor the one referred to as the
          Northern mode?



          > >Or would they likely have used the other mode?
          >
          > I doubt that Elves would have used the mode you're referring to.
          The tehta
          > mode we have attested is more likely a Mannish mode used by the
          Dúnedain of
          > Arnor to write Sindarin. I think the Elves of Mirkwood and
          Lothlórien might
          > have used a tehta mode that differed in one significant detail: it
          probably
          > used Series III for the velars rather than Series IV.


          This is very, very interesting! What evidence do we have of this
          Wood-elven tehta mode?
          There are several other differences between the Gondorian mode and
          the mode of Beleriand besides the Series III/Series IV difference you
          mentioned. Is there any information as to which mode the wood-elven
          form would follow more closely?

          If full writing modes were favored in the North, it seems odd that
          the Elves of Mirkwood would choose to utilize a vowel tehta mode. But
          then, the leaders of both Mirkwood and Lórien were somewhat at odds
          with the Noldor and might have chosen something different for that
          reason - however the tehta modes harkened back to the Quenya mode,
          and it seems unlikely they would go that direction. I would like to
          learn more about this!




          > >Was the vowel tehta mode associated with Gondor? Aragorn uses that
          > >or a similar mode in the King's letter, and as he was educated in
          > >Rivendell I wondered if that mode represented an Elven form or a
          form
          > >of Gondor?
          >
          > The tehta mode used in KLIII was probably a mannish mode used by
          Gondorians
          > for Sindarin. Tolkien suggests indirectly in App. E that the people
          of
          > Gondor used a tehta mode. KL I and II used a full-writing mode
          (possibly
          > originating in Arnor?), probably so that Sam and his family could
          read it
          > more easily.
          > >
          > >As Westron was the Common Tongue at that time in Middle-earth, what
          > >form of writing was used in general for Westron?
          >
          > In the Shire, probably tengwar of the full-writing mode used for
          the English
          > portion of the King's Letter, considering this was meant to
          represent the
          > Westron translation. Remember that Elanor could read the
          translation.
          > Full-writing because the Shire is in the north. Ditto among the
          Northern
          > Rangers. As mentioned above, those in Gondor probably used a tehta
          mode. The
          > Rohirrim and the men of Dale used a simple version of the cirth
          (runes).
          >
          > These are just my thoughts ... some will doubtlessly disagree!
          >
          > Cuio mae, Danny.



          I had some trouble trying to post - hope I didn't post this twice. :)


          >
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
          http://messenger.msn.com
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.