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Tengwar modes used in Third Age Middle-earth

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  • psalm19us
    Suilad, I am new to this list. I am beginning to explore Sindarin and writing with Tengwar. I have a question about Tengwar as it was used in Tolkien s world.
    Message 1 of 5 , Apr 7, 2002
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      Suilad,
      I am new to this list. I am beginning to explore Sindarin and writing
      with Tengwar.

      I have a question about Tengwar as it was used in Tolkien's world.
      From what I can determine there were two predominant modes for
      Sindarin in the Third Age – The Mode of Beleriand and the vowel tehta
      mode (I don't know a better name for that one yet.) I have read that
      the Mode of Beleriand is considered the mode that would have been
      used in Rivendell in the Third Age. So wouldn't that mode then have
      been used by the other Elves of Middle-earth also (i.e. Lórien, the
      Havens and Mirkwood)? Or would they likely have used the other mode?

      Was the vowel tehta mode associated with Gondor? Aragorn uses that
      or a similar mode in the King's letter, and as he was educated in
      Rivendell I wondered if that mode represented an Elven form or a form
      of Gondor?

      As Westron was the Common Tongue at that time in Middle-earth, what
      form of writing was used in general for Westron? There was a Northern
      mode which, if I understand correctly, was used by the Dwarves of
      Erebor to write in Westron. What form of writing did the Hobbits use -
      did they use Tengwar letters also?

      Any input you can offer would be welcome!

      Hennaid,
      Ithildin
    • Gildor Inglorion
      teithant psalm19us ... the Mode of Beleriand is considered the mode that would have been used in Rivendell in the Third Age. So wouldn t that mode then have
      Message 2 of 5 , Apr 7, 2002
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        teithant psalm19us

        > mode (I don't know a better name for that one yet.) I have read that

        the Mode of Beleriand is considered the mode that would have been
        used in Rivendell in the Third Age. So wouldn't that mode then have
        been used by the other Elves of Middle-earth also (i.e. Lσrien, the
        Havens and Mirkwood)? Or would they likely have used the other mode?

        * all i can tell is: probably

        > Was the vowel tehta mode associated with Gondor?  Aragorn uses that

        or a similar mode in the King's letter, and as he was educated in
        Rivendell I wondered if that mode represented an Elven form or a form
        of Gondor?

        * Gondorians used that tehta mode.. probably influenced by the Numenorian mode... there is also a mode between Beleriandic and Gondorian.. as Daniel told me, this full mode was used in Arnor

        > As Westron was the Common Tongue at that time in Middle-earth, what

        form of writing was used in general for Westron? There was a Northern
        mode which, if I understand correctly, was used by the Dwarves of
        Erebor to write in Westron. What form of writing did the Hobbits use -
        did they use Tengwar letters also?

        * yes but i am not sure if they used the Northern or the full mode.. the full mode (maybe Arnorian too) was also influenced by the Numenorian



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      • Danny Andriës
        ... Gildor has given some good answers (and you can find more information in his excellent essay on the Gwaith-i-Phethdain website), but I can expound a bit
        Message 3 of 5 , Apr 8, 2002
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          Teithant psalm19us:

          >I have a question about Tengwar as it was used in Tolkien's world.

          Gildor has given some good answers (and you can find more information in his
          excellent essay on the Gwaith-i-Phethdain website), but I can expound a bit
          with my own theories. CAUTION: Note the word THEORIES!

          >From what I can determine there were two predominant modes for
          >Sindarin in the Third Age � The Mode of Beleriand and the vowel tehta
          >mode (I don't know a better name for that one yet.)

          Probably more than two.

          >I have read that
          >the Mode of Beleriand is considered the mode that would have been
          >used in Rivendell in the Third Age. So wouldn't that mode then have
          >been used by the other Elves of Middle-earth also

          I think the full-writing modes (not just for Sindarin, and not just the Mode
          of Beleriand) were used in the Northern parts of Middle Earth, so the Mode
          of Beleriand would have been used by the Elves of Rivendell, Hollin and the
          Grey Havens.

          >Or would they likely have used the other mode?

          I doubt that Elves would have used the mode you're referring to. The tehta
          mode we have attested is more likely a Mannish mode used by the D�nedain of
          Arnor to write Sindarin. I think the Elves of Mirkwood and Lothl�rien might
          have used a tehta mode that differed in one significant detail: it probably
          used Series III for the velars rather than Series IV.
          >
          >Was the vowel tehta mode associated with Gondor? Aragorn uses that
          >or a similar mode in the King's letter, and as he was educated in
          >Rivendell I wondered if that mode represented an Elven form or a form
          >of Gondor?

          The tehta mode used in KLIII was probably a mannish mode used by Gondorians
          for Sindarin. Tolkien suggests indirectly in App. E that the people of
          Gondor used a tehta mode. KL I and II used a full-writing mode (possibly
          originating in Arnor?), probably so that Sam and his family could read it
          more easily.
          >
          >As Westron was the Common Tongue at that time in Middle-earth, what
          >form of writing was used in general for Westron?

          In the Shire, probably tengwar of the full-writing mode used for the English
          portion of the King's Letter, considering this was meant to represent the
          Westron translation. Remember that Elanor could read the translation.
          Full-writing because the Shire is in the north. Ditto among the Northern
          Rangers. As mentioned above, those in Gondor probably used a tehta mode. The
          Rohirrim and the men of Dale used a simple version of the cirth (runes).

          These are just my thoughts ... some will doubtlessly disagree!

          Cuio mae, Danny.




          _________________________________________________________________
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        • psalm19us
          ... information in his ... expound a bit ... tehta ... the Mode ... the Mode ... and the ... So was this full writing mode of Arnor the one referred to as the
          Message 4 of 5 , Apr 10, 2002
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            --- In elfscript@y..., "Danny Andriës" <tegilbor@h...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Teithant psalm19us:
            >
            > >I have a question about Tengwar as it was used in Tolkien's world.
            >
            > Gildor has given some good answers (and you can find more
            information in his
            > excellent essay on the Gwaith-i-Phethdain website), but I can
            expound a bit
            > with my own theories. CAUTION: Note the word THEORIES!
            >
            > >From what I can determine there were two predominant modes for
            > >Sindarin in the Third Age – The Mode of Beleriand and the vowel
            tehta
            > >mode (I don't know a better name for that one yet.)
            >
            > Probably more than two.
            >
            > >I have read that
            > >the Mode of Beleriand is considered the mode that would have been
            > >used in Rivendell in the Third Age. So wouldn't that mode then have
            > >been used by the other Elves of Middle-earth also
            >
            > I think the full-writing modes (not just for Sindarin, and not just
            the Mode
            > of Beleriand) were used in the Northern parts of Middle Earth, so
            the Mode
            > of Beleriand would have been used by the Elves of Rivendell, Hollin
            and the
            > Grey Havens.

            So was this full writing mode of Arnor the one referred to as the
            Northern mode?


            > >Or would they likely have used the other mode?
            >
            > I doubt that Elves would have used the mode you're referring to.
            The tehta
            > mode we have attested is more likely a Mannish mode used by the
            Dúnedain of
            > Arnor to write Sindarin. I think the Elves of Mirkwood and
            Lothlórien might
            > have used a tehta mode that differed in one significant detail: it
            probably
            > used Series III for the velars rather than Series IV.

            Thanks to you and Gildor Inglorion you for your input!
            This is very, very interesting! What evidence do we have of this
            Wood-elven tehta mode?
            There are several other differences between the Gondorian mode and
            the mode of Beleriand besides the Series III/Series IV difference you
            mentioned. Is there any information as to which mode the wood-elven
            form would follow more closely? I would guess the mode of Beleriand.

            If full writing modes were favored in the North, it seems odd that
            the Elves of Mirkwood would choose to utilize a vowel tehta mode. But
            then, the leaders of both Mirkwood and Lórien were somewhat at odds
            with the Noldor and might have chosen something different for that
            reason - however the tehta modes harkened back to the Quenya mode,
            and it seems unlikely they would go that direction. I would like to
            learn more about this!

            > >Was the vowel tehta mode associated with Gondor? Aragorn uses that
            > >or a similar mode in the King's letter, and as he was educated in
            > >Rivendell I wondered if that mode represented an Elven form or a
            form
            > >of Gondor?
            >
            > The tehta mode used in KLIII was probably a mannish mode used by
            Gondorians
            > for Sindarin. Tolkien suggests indirectly in App. E that the people
            of
            > Gondor used a tehta mode. KL I and II used a full-writing mode
            (possibly
            > originating in Arnor?), probably so that Sam and his family could
            read it
            > more easily.
            > >
            > >As Westron was the Common Tongue at that time in Middle-earth, what
            > >form of writing was used in general for Westron?
            >
            > In the Shire, probably tengwar of the full-writing mode used for
            the English
            > portion of the King's Letter, considering this was meant to
            represent the
            > Westron translation. Remember that Elanor could read the
            translation.
            > Full-writing because the Shire is in the north. Ditto among the
            Northern
            > Rangers. As mentioned above, those in Gondor probably used a tehta
            mode. The
            > Rohirrim and the men of Dale used a simple version of the cirth
            (runes).
            >
            > These are just my thoughts ... some will doubtlessly disagree!
            >
            > Cuio mae, Danny.
            >

            >
            >
            > _________________________________________________________________
            > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
            http://messenger.msn.com
          • psalm19us
            ... information in his ... expound a bit ... tehta ... the Mode ... the Mode ... and the ... Thanks to you and Gildor Inglorion for responding! So was this
            Message 5 of 5 , Apr 10, 2002
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              --- In elfscript@y..., "Danny Andriës" <tegilbor@h...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Teithant psalm19us:
              >
              > >I have a question about Tengwar as it was used in Tolkien's world.
              >
              > Gildor has given some good answers (and you can find more
              information in his
              > excellent essay on the Gwaith-i-Phethdain website), but I can
              expound a bit
              > with my own theories. CAUTION: Note the word THEORIES!
              >
              > >From what I can determine there were two predominant modes for
              > >Sindarin in the Third Age – The Mode of Beleriand and the vowel
              tehta
              > >mode (I don't know a better name for that one yet.)
              >
              > Probably more than two.
              >
              > >I have read that
              > >the Mode of Beleriand is considered the mode that would have been
              > >used in Rivendell in the Third Age. So wouldn't that mode then have
              > >been used by the other Elves of Middle-earth also
              >
              > I think the full-writing modes (not just for Sindarin, and not just
              the Mode
              > of Beleriand) were used in the Northern parts of Middle Earth, so
              the Mode
              > of Beleriand would have been used by the Elves of Rivendell, Hollin
              and the
              > Grey Havens.


              Thanks to you and Gildor Inglorion for responding!
              So was this full writing mode of Arnor the one referred to as the
              Northern mode?



              > >Or would they likely have used the other mode?
              >
              > I doubt that Elves would have used the mode you're referring to.
              The tehta
              > mode we have attested is more likely a Mannish mode used by the
              Dúnedain of
              > Arnor to write Sindarin. I think the Elves of Mirkwood and
              Lothlórien might
              > have used a tehta mode that differed in one significant detail: it
              probably
              > used Series III for the velars rather than Series IV.


              This is very, very interesting! What evidence do we have of this
              Wood-elven tehta mode?
              There are several other differences between the Gondorian mode and
              the mode of Beleriand besides the Series III/Series IV difference you
              mentioned. Is there any information as to which mode the wood-elven
              form would follow more closely?

              If full writing modes were favored in the North, it seems odd that
              the Elves of Mirkwood would choose to utilize a vowel tehta mode. But
              then, the leaders of both Mirkwood and Lórien were somewhat at odds
              with the Noldor and might have chosen something different for that
              reason - however the tehta modes harkened back to the Quenya mode,
              and it seems unlikely they would go that direction. I would like to
              learn more about this!




              > >Was the vowel tehta mode associated with Gondor? Aragorn uses that
              > >or a similar mode in the King's letter, and as he was educated in
              > >Rivendell I wondered if that mode represented an Elven form or a
              form
              > >of Gondor?
              >
              > The tehta mode used in KLIII was probably a mannish mode used by
              Gondorians
              > for Sindarin. Tolkien suggests indirectly in App. E that the people
              of
              > Gondor used a tehta mode. KL I and II used a full-writing mode
              (possibly
              > originating in Arnor?), probably so that Sam and his family could
              read it
              > more easily.
              > >
              > >As Westron was the Common Tongue at that time in Middle-earth, what
              > >form of writing was used in general for Westron?
              >
              > In the Shire, probably tengwar of the full-writing mode used for
              the English
              > portion of the King's Letter, considering this was meant to
              represent the
              > Westron translation. Remember that Elanor could read the
              translation.
              > Full-writing because the Shire is in the north. Ditto among the
              Northern
              > Rangers. As mentioned above, those in Gondor probably used a tehta
              mode. The
              > Rohirrim and the men of Dale used a simple version of the cirth
              (runes).
              >
              > These are just my thoughts ... some will doubtlessly disagree!
              >
              > Cuio mae, Danny.



              I had some trouble trying to post - hope I didn't post this twice. :)


              >
              >
              > _________________________________________________________________
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