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Re: [elfscript] Some tengwar modes

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  • Kassandra Velez
    ... Thanks for the advice. Incorporated, along with a few other revisions. I should now have ever necessary sound and then a few covered (including a full
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 31, 1969
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      Harri Per�l� <harri.perala@...> wrote:
      >Kassandra Velez wrote:
      >
      >> extended tinco for th, extended ando for d and dh (never mind that I
      >> already have tyelle-2 ando for d!), extended umbar for b, and
      >> extended anga for g and gh. Mostly for writing foreign names, I
      >> suppose, though one or two of those sounds might turn up in a
      >> borrowed word or two. Or not. Have I forgotten any? (Besides the
      >> sibilant series, that is.)
      >
      >In normal loans, ones that have been adapted to Finnish, letters for _b,
      >g, f, sh_ should be enough. Names, as well as loans that are spelled and
      >(in theory) pronounced as in the original language, could of course
      >contain almost any sound imaginable. In practice, I would think that
      >your list above (plus some sibilants) will get a writer pretty far.
      >Extended calma for _kh_ (Sindarin _ch_)?

      Thanks for the advice. Incorporated, along with a few other revisions. I should now have ever necessary sound and then a few covered (including a full sibilant series, just in case anyone is thinking of tossing in some loanwords from Chinese :) ).

      >> By the way, you wouldn't happen to mind if I stole your idea of
      >> using suule for S, would you? :)
      >
      >Certainly not, especially if I can borrow your diphthong system some
      >time :)

      Go ahead, have it. :) (Looks like I won't be needing the suule trick, though--quesseteema goooood.)

      >> In any case, it doesn't look bad. And I *swear* I didn't steal the
      >> vowel-tehta arrangement from your mode.)
      >
      >Well, I stole it from M�ns Bj�rkman's Swedish mode.

      How very odd. I pulled an almost identical one ex recta (I knew that boring morning calculus class was good for something!) and then dropped the over-circle I was using for � in favor of the tilde-thing.
    • Kassandra Velez
      ... Indeed it is. ... Why thank you. ... Indeed. (Or rather, once I decided on using hyarmen, I needed to pick out a tehta to put over it for each diphthong,
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 31, 1969
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        Harri Per�l� <harri.perala@...> wrote:
        >Kassandra Velez wrote:
        >
        >> http://www.crosswinds.net/~kvelez/tengwar.html
        >> Thoughts on any of them?
        >
        >I think the Finnish mode is quite nice. It seems to me that the
        >arrangement of the consonant table is based on Finnish consonant
        >gradiation,

        Indeed it is.

        >which is an interesting idea. What I especially like are the
        >diphthongs: I used to think that representing the Finnish diphthongs as
        >tengwa + tehta combinations would not work, but this solution seems to
        >be quite handy.

        Why thank you.

        >Thoughts on some details:
        >- Are the spellings of _ie, uo, y�_ meant to reflect the origin of these
        >diphthongs (from _ee, oo, ��_, right?)?

        Indeed. (Or rather, once I decided on using hyarmen, I needed to pick out a tehta to put over it for each diphthong, and since these were etymologically long vowels, really, why not?)

        >I think it's a great idea.
        >Hyarmen seems a bit awkward here, but I guess that it is the most
        >reasonable choice.

        A. Not very many alternatives--only hwesta sindarinwa (the stem's in a bad place, it gets in the way), the quesseteema (which I'd like to keep free just in case), and the leftovers from tyelle 6 (not all that satisfactory, either).

        B. And much more importantly, it looks like yanta. A lot like yanta.

        >- I am not sure if I see the point of having tengwar for /T/ and /D/,
        >unless one also has letters for other foreign sounds that are frequently
        >needed (/z Z S dZ/ and so on).

        I actually put the extended-stem tengwar to work covering most of those sorts of sounds: extended tinco for th, extended ando for d and dh (never mind that I already have tyelle-2 ando for d!), extended umbar for b, and extended anga for g and gh. Mostly for writing foreign names, I suppose, though one or two of those sounds might turn up in a borrowed word or two. Or not. Have I forgotten any? (Besides the sibilant series, that is.)

        By the way, you wouldn't happen to mind if I stole your idea of using suule for S, would you? :) A bit of tap dancing, an extra tehta or two, and it could come in quite handy.

        >By the way, if I may do some site... promoting myself:

        :)

        >a somewhat
        >different Finnish mode, by Juho Pahajoki and myself, is described in
        >Finnish at
        >
        >http://www.sci.fi/%7ealboin/suomitengwar_luonnos.htm#yleista
        >
        >The description is not finished, and the English summary I was planning
        >to write doesn't exist at all, but this seemed to be a good time to
        >mention it. Anyway, all of the relevant information is in the table and
        >the image showing the tehtar - the rest is just a long-winded discussion
        >of the tengwar and some basics of Finnish phonetics.

        (Which is definitely good from my point of view, because my Finnish is far too horrendously terrible to understand much else. In any case, it doesn't look bad. And I *swear* I didn't steal the vowel-tehta arrangement from your mode.)

        >There is also a sample page written in a variant of this mode:
        >
        >http://www.sci.fi/%7ealboin/images/lktk_s1.gif
        >
        >The text is the beginning of a reconstructed form of the folk poem "The
        >Death of Bishop Henrik". It begins "Kaksi on pyh�'� miest�, kaksi kansan
        >ruhtinasta: toinen kasvoi Kaalimaassa, toinen Ruotsissa yleni" - "There
        >are two holy men, two lords of the people: one grew up in Cabbageland,
        >the other in Sweden".
      • Harri Perälä
        ... I think the Finnish mode is quite nice. It seems to me that the arrangement of the consonant table is based on Finnish consonant gradiation, which is an
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 4, 2002
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          Kassandra Velez wrote:

          > http://www.crosswinds.net/~kvelez/tengwar.html
          > Thoughts on any of them?

          I think the Finnish mode is quite nice. It seems to me that the
          arrangement of the consonant table is based on Finnish consonant
          gradiation, which is an interesting idea. What I especially like are the
          diphthongs: I used to think that representing the Finnish diphthongs as
          tengwa + tehta combinations would not work, but this solution seems to
          be quite handy.

          Thoughts on some details:
          - Are the spellings of _ie, uo, yö_ meant to reflect the origin of these
          diphthongs (from _ee, oo, öö_, right?)? I think it's a great idea.
          Hyarmen seems a bit awkward here, but I guess that it is the most
          reasonable choice.
          - I am not sure if I see the point of having tengwar for /T/ and /D/,
          unless one also has letters for other foreign sounds that are frequently
          needed (/z Z S dZ/ and so on).

          By the way, if I may do some site... promoting myself: a somewhat
          different Finnish mode, by Juho Pahajoki and myself, is described in
          Finnish at

          http://www.sci.fi/%7ealboin/suomitengwar_luonnos.htm#yleista

          The description is not finished, and the English summary I was planning
          to write doesn't exist at all, but this seemed to be a good time to
          mention it. Anyway, all of the relevant information is in the table and
          the image showing the tehtar - the rest is just a long-winded discussion
          of the tengwar and some basics of Finnish phonetics.

          There is also a sample page written in a variant of this mode:

          http://www.sci.fi/%7ealboin/images/lktk_s1.gif

          The text is the beginning of a reconstructed form of the folk poem "The
          Death of Bishop Henrik". It begins "Kaksi on pyhä'ä miestä, kaksi kansan
          ruhtinasta: toinen kasvoi Kaalimaassa, toinen Ruotsissa yleni" - "There
          are two holy men, two lords of the people: one grew up in Cabbageland,
          the other in Sweden".

          --
          Harri Perälä perala@... http://www.sci.fi/%7ealboin/
        • Abrigon
          Wasn t it Quenya that was based on ideas of Finnish. While Sindarian seems to be based in part on Welsh. And since Tengwar was originally designed by Feanor
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 4, 2002
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            Wasn't it Quenya that was based on ideas of Finnish. While Sindarian
            seems to be based in part on Welsh.

            And since Tengwar was originally designed by Feanor who was a Noldor
            and spoke Quenya. It fits that Finnish likely would be best used by
            Tengwar.

            Mike
          • Harri Perälä
            ... In normal loans, ones that have been adapted to Finnish, letters for _b, g, f, sh_ should be enough. Names, as well as loans that are spelled and (in
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 5, 2002
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              Kassandra Velez wrote:

              > extended tinco for th, extended ando for d and dh (never mind that I
              > already have tyelle-2 ando for d!), extended umbar for b, and
              > extended anga for g and gh. Mostly for writing foreign names, I
              > suppose, though one or two of those sounds might turn up in a
              > borrowed word or two. Or not. Have I forgotten any? (Besides the
              > sibilant series, that is.)

              In normal loans, ones that have been adapted to Finnish, letters for _b,
              g, f, sh_ should be enough. Names, as well as loans that are spelled and
              (in theory) pronounced as in the original language, could of course
              contain almost any sound imaginable. In practice, I would think that
              your list above (plus some sibilants) will get a writer pretty far.
              Extended calma for _kh_ (Sindarin _ch_)?

              > By the way, you wouldn't happen to mind if I stole your idea of
              > using suule for S, would you? :)

              Certainly not, especially if I can borrow your diphthong system some
              time :)

              > In any case, it doesn't look bad. And I *swear* I didn't steal the
              > vowel-tehta arrangement from your mode.)

              Well, I stole it from Måns Björkman's Swedish mode.

              --
              Harri Perälä perala@... http://www.sci.fi/%7ealboin/
            • Måns Björkman
              ... It might interest you that I nowadays write _å_ and _ö_ a little differently. A friend pointed out that since one dot is used for _i_ and two dots
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 6, 2002
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                Kassandra Velez (>>>, >) wrote in reply to Harri Perälä (>>):
                >>> In any case, it doesn't look bad. And I *swear* I didn't steal
                >>> the vowel-tehta arrangement from your mode.)
                >>>
                >> Well, I stole it from Måns Björkman's Swedish mode.
                >
                > How very odd. I pulled an almost identical one ex recta (I knew that
                > boring morning calculus class was good for something!) and then
                > dropped the over-circle I was using for ö in favor of the
                > tilde-thing.

                It might interest you that I nowadays write _å_ and _ö_ a little
                differently. A friend pointed out that since one dot is used for _i_ and
                two dots represent _y_, doubling a vowel sign could represent
                lip-rounding. Consequently, I now use a doubled acute accent for _ö_
                (rounded _e_), and use the reversed tilde to represent _å_. The new
                representation of _å_ is still slightly haphazard, but better, I think,
                than using the same sign as for _o_, or some unattested variant.

                Yours,
                Måns

                --
                Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
                Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
                SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
                Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
              • Harri Perälä
                ... I can t think of any features of Finnish that would make particularly well suited for the tengwar, though. The Feanorian system as a whole was meant to be
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 6, 2002
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                  Abrigon wrote:

                  > Wasn't it Quenya that was based on ideas of Finnish.
                  > And since Tengwar was originally designed by Feanor who was a Noldor
                  > and spoke Quenya. It fits that Finnish likely would be best used by
                  > Tengwar.

                  I can't think of any features of Finnish that would make particularly
                  well suited for the tengwar, though. The Feanorian system as a whole was
                  meant to be generic, and the special features of the classical Quenya
                  mode do not seem to be easily applicable to Finnish.

                  Firstly, the number of possible consonant clusters in modern Finnish is
                  larger than in Quenya, so not very many of them can be given their own
                  tengwar. As a side effect of this, Quenya style a-omission (as explained
                  in <http://www.elvish.org/elm/spelling.html>) would probably not be
                  practical in any Finnish tehta mode.

                  I would also assume that Feanor was not familiar with any language that
                  had over 15 diphthongs. As Kassandra Velez has demonstrated, it is quite
                  possible to design a Finnish mode where diphthongs are spelled
                  differently from disyllabic vowel combinations, but the system is not
                  being very helpful.

                  On the other hand, writing Finnish phonemically in tengwar is certainly
                  not difficult, either. Some languages must be much more problematic.
                  Unfortunately, my knowledge of foreign languages and tengwar modes is
                  not enough for very many comparisons. What do others think? Is the
                  system of the tengwar somehow optimized for "Quenya-like" languages?

                  --
                  Harri Perälä perala@... http://www.sci.fi/%7ealboin/
                • gildir_1
                  ... _i_ and ... I use that scheme in my suggestion for a swedish mode on http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html . A doubled (five-dot) A-tehta for
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 8, 2002
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                    --- In elfscript@y..., Måns Björkman <mansb@h...> wrote:

                    > It might interest you that I nowadays write _å_ and _ö_ a little
                    > differently. A friend pointed out that since one dot is used for
                    _i_ and
                    > two dots represent _y_, doubling a vowel sign could represent
                    > lip-rounding.

                    I use that scheme in my suggestion for a swedish mode on
                    http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html .

                    A doubled (five-dot) A-tehta for Å is perhaps not so pretty,
                    and so the 'backwards twist'-tehta has been suggested as a
                    replacement. It's not too weird, since it is used for
                    'following w' in sindarin modes, and has a similar use in
                    english modes (e.g. DTS 16-18). But I'm still not convinced...


                    Suilaid,
                    Gildir, Per Lindberg
                  • BP Jonsson
                    ... I have uploaded my own attempt at a solution for Swedish and Finnish to Comments and criticism are welcome! /BP 8^)
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 9, 2002
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                      At 13:00 2002-04-08 +0000, gildir_1 wrote:

                      >A doubled (five-dot) A-tehta for Å is perhaps not so pretty,
                      >and so the 'backwards twist'-tehta has been suggested as a
                      >replacement. It's not too weird, since it is used for
                      >'following w' in sindarin modes, and has a similar use in
                      >english modes (e.g. DTS 16-18). But I'm still not convinced...

                      I have uploaded my own attempt at a solution for Swedish and Finnish to
                      <http://www.melroch.net/tengwar.html>

                      Comments and criticism are welcome!



                      /BP 8^)>
                      --
                      B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@... (delete X)
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                      A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
                      __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
                      \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
                      / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
                      / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Melarokko\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
                      /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
                      Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
                      ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
                      || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
                      "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
                    • BP Jonsson
                      ... Oops! A small but significant error persisted from an earlier version of the Finnish mode. I just uploaded a corrected version. /BP 8^) -- B.Philip
                      Message 10 of 11 , Apr 9, 2002
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                        At 17:05 2002-04-09 +0200, I wrote:

                        >At 13:00 2002-04-08 +0000, gildir_1 wrote:
                        >
                        > >A doubled (five-dot) A-tehta for Å is perhaps not so pretty,
                        > >and so the 'backwards twist'-tehta has been suggested as a
                        > >replacement. It's not too weird, since it is used for
                        > >'following w' in sindarin modes, and has a similar use in
                        > >english modes (e.g. DTS 16-18). But I'm still not convinced...
                        >
                        >I have uploaded my own attempt at a solution for Swedish and Finnish to
                        ><http://www.melroch.net/tengwar.html>
                        >
                        >Comments and criticism are welcome!

                        Oops! A small but significant error persisted from an earlier version of
                        the Finnish mode. I just uploaded a corrected version.

                        /BP 8^)>
                        --
                        B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@... (delete X)
                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                        A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
                        __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
                        \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
                        / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
                        / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Melarokko\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
                        /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
                        Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
                        ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
                        || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
                        "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
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