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Re: [elfscript] : Used At All?

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  • Johan Winge
    ... Ok, now I follow you! To completely put an end to the confusion I have uploaded a picture: http://m1.174.telia.com/~u17402402/tolkien/tengwar.gif 1a is the
    Message 1 of 8 , Sep 28, 2000
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      At 21:33 2000-09-26 +0200, Måns Björkman wrote:
      >Johan Winge wrote:
      >
      >[Concerning what I described as "a cursive '2' or an upside-down
      ><romen>"]
      >
      >Forgive me, my formulation was ambigous. What I meant was that in DTS
      >17, the tengwa in question resembles a "rómen nuquerna"; in DTS 18 it
      >resembles a cursive "2", as exemplified in line 13.

      Ok, now I follow you! To completely put an end to the confusion I have
      uploaded a picture:
      http://m1.174.telia.com/~u17402402/tolkien/tengwar.gif

      1a is the w-tengwa from DTS-17. 1b is the same tengwa from DTS-18, which I
      mistook for Måns' "cursive 2". I think everyone can agree on that these has
      _nothing_ to do with hwesta sindarinwa.

      2a is from DTS 17 and used in the word "whither".
      2b is from DTS 18, line 13, likewise used for "wh" in "whither".
      2c is also from DTS 18, line 19, used in the word "where".
      2d, which isn't on the picture, is the "cursive L" in DTS 37; the only
      difference between this and 2c is basically that the upper (open) bow is
      much smaller and turns to the right and not to the left, if you see what I
      mean. I'm prety confident that this is only a result of the different styles.

      The difference between 2b and 2c is disturbing though. Maybe Tolkien
      couldn't make up his mind, or he simply forgot how he had wroten it before
      when he came to line 19. But still, why wouldn't he close the bow in 2b if
      it really was a hewsta sindarinwa? But then again, why on earth would he
      use a different tengwa in "where" and "whither"?! Maybe they are the same
      tengwa but _not_ hwesta sindarinwa? (Note how 2b looks like a mirrored
      hyarmen. Hmmm...)

      My opinion is that the 2c and 2d both are examples of hwesta sindarinwa. 2a
      may be the same tengwa as 2b, and 2b may be the same as 2c. If this is the
      case they are all examples of hwesta sindarinwa, as Måns suggested.

      >> >Common for all these is the closed bow to the left of the stem,

      Ok, except for 2b, as you also pointed out.

      [Snipped interesting thoughts on the development of the additional tengwar.]

      Later
      Johan Winge
    • Mans Bjorkman
      ... Note, though, that in Tolkien s version the tail is actually at the baseline, not below it: the stem has just the same height as that of , and
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 28, 2000
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        Dan Smith wrote (in http://www.geocities.com/fontwizard/elfscript1.pdf):

        > >Mans Bjorkman <mansb@...> writes:
        > >Near the bottom of the Tengwar table in Appendix E to _The Lord of the Rings_, there is an odd-looking
        > >tengwa which resembles a "d" with a tail. The text names it _hwesta sindarinwa_, "Grey-elven _hw_". The
        > >tengwa was "mostly used (if at all) for voiceless _w_ (_hw_)".

        > It looks like this [...]

        Note, though, that in Tolkien's version the "tail" is actually at the
        baseline, not below it: the stem has just the same height as that of
        <hwesta>, and the tail is attached to its lower end.


        > I am also not sure what you mean by a closed bow to the left.
        > They look like their top most curl is open on the left.

        It is clear my wording left much to be desired. As I wrote in my
        response to Johan Winge, "What I meant was that in DTS 17, the tengwa in
        question resembles a "rómen nuquerna"; in DTS 18 it resembles a cursive
        "2", as exemplified in line 13." The former can certainly be said to
        have a closed bow. There is also, as you say, a "lambe nuquerna" (two
        allographs) that represents /w/.


        > I am not entirely sure that I agree with you. I do remember reading
        > somewhere that romen is an 'evolved' form of ore. But likewise, it
        > could be reasoned that the HW character might also be an 'evolved' for
        > of anna.

        Certainly, but IMHO it would make more sense if the character developed
        from one with the same, or a similar, meaning (as <óre> > <rómen>, <aha>
        > <hyarmen>).

        Actually, if my theory is correct, the <rómen nuquerna> is really a
        *secondary* development of <hwesta sindarinwa>. Written quickly, the
        <hwesta sindarinwa> would easily end up as the letter in DTS 18 and 37.
        After the similarity with a turned <rómen> was noted by the users, it
        would then be re-shaped (in the 'pointed' style, but apparently nowhere
        else) to resemble that character more closely. This imagined chain of
        events would in its complexity be a weakness to my theory, if it weren't
        that the <rómen nuquerna> in DTS 17 has such a clear correspondance to
        the WH-tengwa in DTS 18.


        > I've always thought that 'hwesta sindarinwa' was a combination of
        > 'ure' (W) and 'halla' (H):

        That may indeed be a possibility, though the name of the tengwa makes me
        believe rather that it developed from <hwesta>.


        Johan Winge wrote:
        >
        > 2d, which isn't on the picture, is the "cursive L" in DTS 37; the only
        > difference between this and 2c is basically that the upper (open) bow is
        > much smaller and turns to the right and not to the left, if you see what I
        > mean. I'm prety confident that this is only a result of the different styles.

        I agree.


        > The difference between 2b and 2c is disturbing though. Maybe Tolkien
        > couldn't make up his mind, or he simply forgot how he had wroten it before
        > when he came to line 19. But still, why wouldn't he close the bow in 2b if
        > it really was a hewsta sindarinwa? But then again, why on earth would he
        > use a different tengwa in "where" and "whither"?! Maybe they are the same
        > tengwa but _not_ hwesta sindarinwa? (Note how 2b looks like a mirrored
        > hyarmen. Hmmm...)

        Well, we must keep another thing in mind here: the _Errantry_ and _Tom
        Bombadil_ inscriptions were written *early* in Tolkien's life. The
        _Errantry_ inscription corresponds closely to the versions Tolkien wrote
        in the early 1930's (see HME 7 pp 84 ff), and based on the Tengwar mode
        used it is reasonable to assume the _Tom Bombadil_ inscriptions are
        roughly contemporary.

        At this time, Tolkien's ideas on the writing system may still have been
        in a state of flux. It would surprise me if he had already then worked
        out the history of the letters as we know it today.

        Actually, from a *superfictional* perspective, I think the HW-tengwa
        seen here is the *origins* of what was to become <hwesta sindarinwa> in
        LR, not a development from it. Seen from *within* the subcreation, I of
        course have to explain it the other way around.


        Regards,
        Måns


        --
        Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
        Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
        SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
        Sweden An þer."
      • DDanielA@webtv.net
        I would assume that it s used in the Sindarin words hwest (breeze), hwan= n (sponge) and hwinio (twirl). –Danny.
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 31, 2000
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          I would assume that it's used in the Sindarin words "hwest" (breeze), "hwan=
          n" (sponge) and "hwinio" (twirl). –Danny.
          --- In elfscript@egroups.com, Mans Bjorkman <mansb@h...> wrote:
          > Near the bottom of the Tengwar table in Appendix E to _The Lord of the
          > Rings_, there is an odd-looking tengwa which resembles a "d" with a
          > tail. The text names it _hwesta sindarinwa_, "Grey-elven _hw_". The
          > tengwa was "mostly used (if at all) for voiceless _w_ (_hw_)".
          >
          > The name _hwesta sindarinwa_ would suggest that the tengwa was used when
          > writing Sindarin, yet we have no examples of its usage in that language.
          > In fact, in the whole of Tolkien's published production, a tengwa with
          > this appearance occurs in one place only: the Tengwar table in LR.
          > (Christopher Tolkien does use it in his title page inscription to _The
          > Silmarillion_, but that inscription contains so many oddities that it
          > cannot be trusted to correspond with JRRT's intentions.)
          >
          > On the other hand, another, quite similar tengwa occurs several times in
          > Tolkien's English inscriptions, right from the early _Tom Bombadil_
          > inscriptions (DTS* 17,18) down to the proposed dust-jacked design for
          > _The Two Towers_ (DTS 37). In the former, it mostly resembles a cursive
          > "2" or an upside-down <romen>; in the latter, it has taken the form of
          > an elegant cursive "L". Common for all these is the closed bow to the
          > left of the stem, and the "tail" to the right of it (in DTS 18 the bow
          > may be missing, but its relatedness with the corresponding tengwa in DTS
          > 17 cannot be doubted).
          >
          > These tengwar all represent the English voiceless "w", just as <hwesta
          > sindarinwa> is meant to. Could they actually be cursive forms of that
          > tengwa? We know that <romen> developed as a cursive variant of <óre>, so
          > this kind of variation is not unpreceded. Given the attested usage,
          > then, which form of the tengwa should be used? The cursive form, or the
          > "upright" one given in the Tengwar table?
          >
          >
          > * "DTS" in this letter refers to The Mellonath Daeron Index of Tengwar
          > Specimina <http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/mdtci.html>
          >
          >
          > --
          > Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
          > Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
          > SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
          > Sweden An þer."
        • Mans Bjorkman
          ... I would assume the same. Yours, Måns -- Måns Björkman Mun þu mik! Störtloppsvägen 8, III
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 31, 2000
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            Danny Andriës wrote:

            > I would assume that it's used in the Sindarin words "hwest" (breeze),
            > "hwann" (sponge) and "hwinio" (twirl). –Danny.

            I would assume the same.

            Yours,
            Måns


            --
            Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
            Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
            SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
            Sweden An þer."
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