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Re: [elfscript] : Used At All?

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  • Johan Winge
    ... Aren t they two different tengwar on their own? (I quote from AppE: There was also additional letters , of which 25-36 *are examples* , emphasis mine.) I
    Message 1 of 8 , Sep 25, 2000
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      At 13:14 2000-09-25 +0200, Måns Björkman wrote:
      >
      >Near the bottom of the Tengwar table in Appendix E to _The Lord of the
      >Rings_, there is an odd-looking tengwa which resembles a "d" with a
      >tail. The text names it _hwesta sindarinwa_, "Grey-elven _hw_". The
      >tengwa was "mostly used (if at all) for voiceless _w_ (_hw_)".
      ...
      >a tengwa with this appearance occurs in one place only: the Tengwar
      >table in LR.
      >On the other hand, another, quite similar tengwa occurs several times in
      >Tolkien's English inscriptions, right from the early _Tom Bombadil_
      >inscriptions (DTS* 17,18) down to the proposed dust-jacked design for
      >_The Two Towers_ (DTS 37). In the former, it mostly resembles a cursive
      >"2" or an upside-down <romen>;

      Aren't they two different tengwar on their own? (I quote from AppE: "There
      was also 'additional letters', of which 25-36 *are examples*", emphasis
      mine.) I have always thought of them as <lambe nuquerna> and <rómen
      nuquerna>. What speaks against this is of course that their pronounciation
      has very little to do with /l/ or /r/: <lambe nuquerna> is used to write
      "w" in "was", "water" etc; <romen nuquerna> is the "wh" in "whither". But
      still, why would <hwesta sindarinwa> have two different shapes *in the same
      document*?

      >in the latter, it has taken the form of
      >an elegant cursive "L".

      (Or a lowercase alpha with the upper 'tail' raised.) I think it very
      probable that this is a cursive <hwesta sindarinwa> as you suggest.

      >Common for all these is the closed bow to the left of the stem,

      Pardon? Of all the <lambi nuquerne> (as I call them) I can't find anyone
      with a closed bow? The <rómen nuquerna> does have a closed bow though.

      >and the "tail" to the right of it

      Um, ok, <rómen nuquerna> may be described with a tail to the right, but
      then <hyarmen> also have a tail...

      >(in DTS 18 the bow may be missing, but its relatedness with the
      >corresponding tengwa in DTS 17 cannot be doubted).

      Agreed, but as I said, no one of these bows, existing or not, is closed. (?)

      >These tengwar all represent the English voiceless "w", just as <hwesta
      >sindarinwa> is meant to. Could they actually be cursive forms of that
      >tengwa?

      The 'cursive L' from DTS 37 is probably a <hwesta sindarinwa> IMO. As for
      the other two, I doubt it. (But I'm not sure.)

      >We know that <romen> developed as a cursive variant of <óre>,

      I didn't know this (or I've forgotten it). Reference?

      >so this kind of variation is not unpreceded. Given the attested usage,
      >then, which form of the tengwa should be used? The cursive form, or the
      >"upright" one given in the Tengwar table?

      The one that looks best, I guess. :-) (I think the cursive form looks much
      better.)

      -- Johan Winge
    • Mans Bjorkman
      Johan Winge wrote: [Concerning what I described as a cursive 2 or an upside-down ] ... Forgive me, my formulation was ambigous. What I meant was
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 26, 2000
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        Johan Winge wrote:

        [Concerning what I described as "a cursive '2' or an upside-down
        <romen>"]

        > Aren't they two different tengwar on their own? (I quote from AppE: "There
        > was also 'additional letters', of which 25-36 *are examples*", emphasis
        > mine.) I have always thought of them as <lambe nuquerna> and <rómen
        > nuquerna>. What speaks against this is of course that their pronounciation
        > has very little to do with /l/ or /r/: <lambe nuquerna> is used to write
        > "w" in "was", "water" etc; <romen nuquerna> is the "wh" in "whither". But
        > still, why would <hwesta sindarinwa> have two different shapes *in the same
        > document*?

        Forgive me, my formulation was ambigous. What I meant was that in DTS
        17, the tengwa in question resembles a "rómen nuquerna"; in DTS 18 it
        resembles a cursive "2", as exemplified in line 13.

        There certainly were other 'additional letters' than the ones listed in
        Appendix E, and the "w" tengwa (occuring frequently in DTS 16, 17, 18
        and elsewhere, though its size seems to be quite variable: sometimes it
        says at the <óre>-height, sometimes it extends below the baseline) is a
        prime example of this.


        > >Common for all these is the closed bow to the left of the stem,
        >
        > Pardon? Of all the <lambi nuquerne> (as I call them) I can't find anyone
        > with a closed bow? The <rómen nuquerna> does have a closed bow though.

        Precisely.


        > >and the "tail" to the right of it
        >
        > Um, ok, <rómen nuquerna> may be described with a tail to the right, but
        > then <hyarmen> also have a tail...

        Yes, but in the opposite direction! :) Actually, I think the short
        leftward line in <hyarmen> is what remains of the bow in <harma>.

        It may very well be that at this time, Tolkien perceived the "wh" tengwa
        as having developed from <rómen>, but the resemblance between the
        characters is much stronger in the 'pointed style' than in the
        'decorated verse-hand' (or the 'formal book-hand': see DTS 23, fourth
        line).


        > >We know that <romen> developed as a cursive variant of <óre>,
        >
        > I didn't know this (or I've forgotten it). Reference?

        Appendix E, _The additional letters_, states that <rómen> was "in origin
        a modification of 21 [i.e., <óre>]". The word "cursive" is never used,
        but the process of tilting the stem and adding a 'swash' to the bow may
        justly be so described, IMHO.


        > >so this kind of variation is not unpreceded. Given the attested usage,
        > >then, which form of the tengwa should be used? The cursive form, or the
        > >"upright" one given in the Tengwar table?
        >
        > The one that looks best, I guess. :-) (I think the cursive form looks much
        > better.)

        So do I. The cursive form is more typographically sound than the
        straight one, which leaves a lot of empty space to its right where the
        "tail" must fit in. I almost get the feeling <hwesta sindarinwa> in the
        table has been "straightened" from the cursive form, to make it look
        more similar to <hwesta>.


        Yrs,
        Måns

        --
        Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
        Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
        SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
        Sweden An þer."
      • Dan Smith
        Måns brings up some thought provoking questions about the additional Tengwar letters. I couldn t figure out how to respond to his posting without graphics,
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 27, 2000
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          Måns brings up some thought provoking questions about the
          additional Tengwar letters. I couldn't figure out how to
          respond to his posting without graphics, so I needed to
          place my response in a downloadable PDF at:
          "http://www.geocities.com/fontwizard/elfscript1.pdf"


          --
          Daniel Steven Smith / fontmaster@...
          Fantasy Fonts for Windows / <><
          http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/
        • Johan Winge
          ... Ok, now I follow you! To completely put an end to the confusion I have uploaded a picture: http://m1.174.telia.com/~u17402402/tolkien/tengwar.gif 1a is the
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 28, 2000
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            At 21:33 2000-09-26 +0200, Måns Björkman wrote:
            >Johan Winge wrote:
            >
            >[Concerning what I described as "a cursive '2' or an upside-down
            ><romen>"]
            >
            >Forgive me, my formulation was ambigous. What I meant was that in DTS
            >17, the tengwa in question resembles a "rómen nuquerna"; in DTS 18 it
            >resembles a cursive "2", as exemplified in line 13.

            Ok, now I follow you! To completely put an end to the confusion I have
            uploaded a picture:
            http://m1.174.telia.com/~u17402402/tolkien/tengwar.gif

            1a is the w-tengwa from DTS-17. 1b is the same tengwa from DTS-18, which I
            mistook for Måns' "cursive 2". I think everyone can agree on that these has
            _nothing_ to do with hwesta sindarinwa.

            2a is from DTS 17 and used in the word "whither".
            2b is from DTS 18, line 13, likewise used for "wh" in "whither".
            2c is also from DTS 18, line 19, used in the word "where".
            2d, which isn't on the picture, is the "cursive L" in DTS 37; the only
            difference between this and 2c is basically that the upper (open) bow is
            much smaller and turns to the right and not to the left, if you see what I
            mean. I'm prety confident that this is only a result of the different styles.

            The difference between 2b and 2c is disturbing though. Maybe Tolkien
            couldn't make up his mind, or he simply forgot how he had wroten it before
            when he came to line 19. But still, why wouldn't he close the bow in 2b if
            it really was a hewsta sindarinwa? But then again, why on earth would he
            use a different tengwa in "where" and "whither"?! Maybe they are the same
            tengwa but _not_ hwesta sindarinwa? (Note how 2b looks like a mirrored
            hyarmen. Hmmm...)

            My opinion is that the 2c and 2d both are examples of hwesta sindarinwa. 2a
            may be the same tengwa as 2b, and 2b may be the same as 2c. If this is the
            case they are all examples of hwesta sindarinwa, as Måns suggested.

            >> >Common for all these is the closed bow to the left of the stem,

            Ok, except for 2b, as you also pointed out.

            [Snipped interesting thoughts on the development of the additional tengwar.]

            Later
            Johan Winge
          • Mans Bjorkman
            ... Note, though, that in Tolkien s version the tail is actually at the baseline, not below it: the stem has just the same height as that of , and
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 28, 2000
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              Dan Smith wrote (in http://www.geocities.com/fontwizard/elfscript1.pdf):

              > >Mans Bjorkman <mansb@...> writes:
              > >Near the bottom of the Tengwar table in Appendix E to _The Lord of the Rings_, there is an odd-looking
              > >tengwa which resembles a "d" with a tail. The text names it _hwesta sindarinwa_, "Grey-elven _hw_". The
              > >tengwa was "mostly used (if at all) for voiceless _w_ (_hw_)".

              > It looks like this [...]

              Note, though, that in Tolkien's version the "tail" is actually at the
              baseline, not below it: the stem has just the same height as that of
              <hwesta>, and the tail is attached to its lower end.


              > I am also not sure what you mean by a closed bow to the left.
              > They look like their top most curl is open on the left.

              It is clear my wording left much to be desired. As I wrote in my
              response to Johan Winge, "What I meant was that in DTS 17, the tengwa in
              question resembles a "rómen nuquerna"; in DTS 18 it resembles a cursive
              "2", as exemplified in line 13." The former can certainly be said to
              have a closed bow. There is also, as you say, a "lambe nuquerna" (two
              allographs) that represents /w/.


              > I am not entirely sure that I agree with you. I do remember reading
              > somewhere that romen is an 'evolved' form of ore. But likewise, it
              > could be reasoned that the HW character might also be an 'evolved' for
              > of anna.

              Certainly, but IMHO it would make more sense if the character developed
              from one with the same, or a similar, meaning (as <óre> > <rómen>, <aha>
              > <hyarmen>).

              Actually, if my theory is correct, the <rómen nuquerna> is really a
              *secondary* development of <hwesta sindarinwa>. Written quickly, the
              <hwesta sindarinwa> would easily end up as the letter in DTS 18 and 37.
              After the similarity with a turned <rómen> was noted by the users, it
              would then be re-shaped (in the 'pointed' style, but apparently nowhere
              else) to resemble that character more closely. This imagined chain of
              events would in its complexity be a weakness to my theory, if it weren't
              that the <rómen nuquerna> in DTS 17 has such a clear correspondance to
              the WH-tengwa in DTS 18.


              > I've always thought that 'hwesta sindarinwa' was a combination of
              > 'ure' (W) and 'halla' (H):

              That may indeed be a possibility, though the name of the tengwa makes me
              believe rather that it developed from <hwesta>.


              Johan Winge wrote:
              >
              > 2d, which isn't on the picture, is the "cursive L" in DTS 37; the only
              > difference between this and 2c is basically that the upper (open) bow is
              > much smaller and turns to the right and not to the left, if you see what I
              > mean. I'm prety confident that this is only a result of the different styles.

              I agree.


              > The difference between 2b and 2c is disturbing though. Maybe Tolkien
              > couldn't make up his mind, or he simply forgot how he had wroten it before
              > when he came to line 19. But still, why wouldn't he close the bow in 2b if
              > it really was a hewsta sindarinwa? But then again, why on earth would he
              > use a different tengwa in "where" and "whither"?! Maybe they are the same
              > tengwa but _not_ hwesta sindarinwa? (Note how 2b looks like a mirrored
              > hyarmen. Hmmm...)

              Well, we must keep another thing in mind here: the _Errantry_ and _Tom
              Bombadil_ inscriptions were written *early* in Tolkien's life. The
              _Errantry_ inscription corresponds closely to the versions Tolkien wrote
              in the early 1930's (see HME 7 pp 84 ff), and based on the Tengwar mode
              used it is reasonable to assume the _Tom Bombadil_ inscriptions are
              roughly contemporary.

              At this time, Tolkien's ideas on the writing system may still have been
              in a state of flux. It would surprise me if he had already then worked
              out the history of the letters as we know it today.

              Actually, from a *superfictional* perspective, I think the HW-tengwa
              seen here is the *origins* of what was to become <hwesta sindarinwa> in
              LR, not a development from it. Seen from *within* the subcreation, I of
              course have to explain it the other way around.


              Regards,
              Måns


              --
              Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
              Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
              SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
              Sweden An þer."
            • DDanielA@webtv.net
              I would assume that it s used in the Sindarin words hwest (breeze), hwan= n (sponge) and hwinio (twirl). –Danny.
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 31, 2000
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                I would assume that it's used in the Sindarin words "hwest" (breeze), "hwan=
                n" (sponge) and "hwinio" (twirl). –Danny.
                --- In elfscript@egroups.com, Mans Bjorkman <mansb@h...> wrote:
                > Near the bottom of the Tengwar table in Appendix E to _The Lord of the
                > Rings_, there is an odd-looking tengwa which resembles a "d" with a
                > tail. The text names it _hwesta sindarinwa_, "Grey-elven _hw_". The
                > tengwa was "mostly used (if at all) for voiceless _w_ (_hw_)".
                >
                > The name _hwesta sindarinwa_ would suggest that the tengwa was used when
                > writing Sindarin, yet we have no examples of its usage in that language.
                > In fact, in the whole of Tolkien's published production, a tengwa with
                > this appearance occurs in one place only: the Tengwar table in LR.
                > (Christopher Tolkien does use it in his title page inscription to _The
                > Silmarillion_, but that inscription contains so many oddities that it
                > cannot be trusted to correspond with JRRT's intentions.)
                >
                > On the other hand, another, quite similar tengwa occurs several times in
                > Tolkien's English inscriptions, right from the early _Tom Bombadil_
                > inscriptions (DTS* 17,18) down to the proposed dust-jacked design for
                > _The Two Towers_ (DTS 37). In the former, it mostly resembles a cursive
                > "2" or an upside-down <romen>; in the latter, it has taken the form of
                > an elegant cursive "L". Common for all these is the closed bow to the
                > left of the stem, and the "tail" to the right of it (in DTS 18 the bow
                > may be missing, but its relatedness with the corresponding tengwa in DTS
                > 17 cannot be doubted).
                >
                > These tengwar all represent the English voiceless "w", just as <hwesta
                > sindarinwa> is meant to. Could they actually be cursive forms of that
                > tengwa? We know that <romen> developed as a cursive variant of <óre>, so
                > this kind of variation is not unpreceded. Given the attested usage,
                > then, which form of the tengwa should be used? The cursive form, or the
                > "upright" one given in the Tengwar table?
                >
                >
                > * "DTS" in this letter refers to The Mellonath Daeron Index of Tengwar
                > Specimina <http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/mdtci.html>
                >
                >
                > --
                > Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
                > Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
                > SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
                > Sweden An þer."
              • Mans Bjorkman
                ... I would assume the same. Yours, Måns -- Måns Björkman Mun þu mik! Störtloppsvägen 8, III
                Message 7 of 8 , Dec 31, 2000
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                  Danny Andriës wrote:

                  > I would assume that it's used in the Sindarin words "hwest" (breeze),
                  > "hwann" (sponge) and "hwinio" (twirl). –Danny.

                  I would assume the same.

                  Yours,
                  Måns


                  --
                  Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
                  Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
                  SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
                  Sweden An þer."
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