Re: Language of Mordor ... oh, and extended stems
- Wow, you are an expert in these languages, aren't you! *<:)
But what I mean is, you know how in the back of the book, Tolkien has
the symbols for all the letters of tengwar, and all the symbols for
the letters of another form of Elvish (or was it the dwarf
language?)...but I don't believe he has the same "translation" for the
Mordor language. I was wondering if there was anywhere online I could
> I'm not quite sure what you mean. Maybe how the sounds of the Black
> are represented in tengwar? If so, we have to realise that the onlyexample
> of BS (Black Speech) in tengwar that we have is the RingInscription, so
> let's start with that. What we have that are attested (in thetraditional
> tenwar order): t, p, k, d, b, g, th, sh, gh, n, m, r (weak), r(strong), l,
> z. We also have a few tehtar: nasal bar, a, i, u, û. BS isn't verybased on
> well-developed, and I'm unsure about what its sound system is, but
> the forms we have, I believe that the following assumptions are safeif
> these sounds exist in BS: ch = calma, j = anga, f = formen, kh =hwesta, dh
> = anto, zh = anca, ng (ñ) = nwalme, s = silme & silme nuquerna, h =hyarmen.
> For 'w' and 'y', my guesses are vilya and anna. If BS has 'wh',maybe hwesta
> sindarinwa. I doubt that BS has 'lh' or 'rh' ... too Elvish for thebut we
> inhabitants of Mordor! Apparently the curl open to the left is 'o',
> are told that it's a rare vowel in BS. If BS has the 'e', I thinkthe acute
> accent is a safe guess. If doubled consonants occur in BS, I feelconfident
> that the under bar would be used. 'S' curls? Probably. 'W' overtwist?
> Possibly ... if BS has labialised consonants. Some of theabove-mentioned
> sounds most probably don't exist in BS, but taking these suggestionsand
> adding them to the forms attested in the Ring Inscription shouldprovide
> results that are readable (assuming, of course, that the readerunderstands
> Black Speech).gh) in
> Cuio mae, Danny.
> P.S. - My understanding of the two letters with extended stems (sh,
> the Ring Inscription is this: these are simply used as calligraphicaspirated
> variations of 'aha' and 'ungwe'. They do not, IMHO, represent
> consonants as in the original Quenya system. Appendix E: "They werenot
> needed in the languages of the Third Age that used this script; butthe
> extended forms were much used as variants (more clearlydistinguished from
> Grade 1) of Grades 3 and 4." Okay, I realise that the One Ring wasforged
> (fabricated!) around the middle of the Second Age, not in the Third;but
> consider that JRRT designed dust jackets for volumes of LotR thatshowed the
> Ring Inscription with the 'sh' and 'gh' tengwar written with raised,rather
> than extended, stems.http://messenger.msn.com
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
- teithant scwigglie
> But what I mean is, you know how in the back of the* the runes
> book, Tolkien has
> the symbols for all the letters of tengwar, and all
> the symbols for
> the letters of another form of Elvish (or was it the
> language?)...but I don't believe he has the same
> "translation" for the* tolkien provides the sounds ("translations" as you
> Mordor language. I was wondering if there was
> anywhere online I could
> find it?
say) of various languages.. anyway you can find the
westron sounds in Dan Smith's site
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- Teithant scwigglie:
>Well, no. There are no experts on the Black Speech, but I have a fondness
>Wow, you are an expert in these languages, aren't you! *<:)
for the tengwar.
>But what I mean is, you know how in the back of the book, Tolkien hasSymbols? Do you mean the tengwar themselves?
>the symbols for all the letters of tengwar,
>and all the symbols forI guess you mean the cirth.
>the letters of another form of Elvish (or was it the dwarf
>...but I don't believe he has the same "translation" for theSorry if I'm dense, but I'm still lost. One doesn't 'translate' letters. I
>Mordor language. I was wondering if there was anywhere online I could
assumed that you meant 'transcribe' or 'transliterate', i. e. how to write
the Black Speech in tengwar, or how the tengwar used in the Black Speech
would be written with our alphabet. If my previous post didn't address your
question, then I can't quite grasp what you're asking. What do you mean by
Cuio mae, Danny (Uialdil).
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