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Re: Language of Mordor ... oh, and extended stems

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  • scwigglie
    Wow, you are an expert in these languages, aren t you! *
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 24 8:51 AM
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      Wow, you are an expert in these languages, aren't you! *<:)

      But what I mean is, you know how in the back of the book, Tolkien has
      the symbols for all the letters of tengwar, and all the symbols for
      the letters of another form of Elvish (or was it the dwarf
      language?)...but I don't believe he has the same "translation" for the
      Mordor language. I was wondering if there was anywhere online I could
      find it?



      >
      > I'm not quite sure what you mean. Maybe how the sounds of the Black
      Speech
      > are represented in tengwar? If so, we have to realise that the only
      example
      > of BS (Black Speech) in tengwar that we have is the Ring
      Inscription, so
      > let's start with that. What we have that are attested (in the
      traditional
      > tenwar order): t, p, k, d, b, g, th, sh, gh, n, m, r (weak), r
      (strong), l,
      > z. We also have a few tehtar: nasal bar, a, i, u, û. BS isn't very
      > well-developed, and I'm unsure about what its sound system is, but
      based on
      > the forms we have, I believe that the following assumptions are safe
      if
      > these sounds exist in BS: ch = calma, j = anga, f = formen, kh =
      hwesta, dh
      > = anto, zh = anca, ng (ñ) = nwalme, s = silme & silme nuquerna, h =
      hyarmen.
      > For 'w' and 'y', my guesses are vilya and anna. If BS has 'wh',
      maybe hwesta
      > sindarinwa. I doubt that BS has 'lh' or 'rh' ... too Elvish for the
      > inhabitants of Mordor! Apparently the curl open to the left is 'o',
      but we
      > are told that it's a rare vowel in BS. If BS has the 'e', I think
      the acute
      > accent is a safe guess. If doubled consonants occur in BS, I feel
      confident
      > that the under bar would be used. 'S' curls? Probably. 'W' over
      twist?
      > Possibly ... if BS has labialised consonants. Some of the
      above-mentioned
      > sounds most probably don't exist in BS, but taking these suggestions
      and
      > adding them to the forms attested in the Ring Inscription should
      provide
      > results that are readable (assuming, of course, that the reader
      understands
      > Black Speech).
      >
      > Cuio mae, Danny.
      >
      > P.S. - My understanding of the two letters with extended stems (sh,
      gh) in
      > the Ring Inscription is this: these are simply used as calligraphic
      > variations of 'aha' and 'ungwe'. They do not, IMHO, represent
      aspirated
      > consonants as in the original Quenya system. Appendix E: "They were
      not
      > needed in the languages of the Third Age that used this script; but
      the
      > extended forms were much used as variants (more clearly
      distinguished from
      > Grade 1) of Grades 3 and 4." Okay, I realise that the One Ring was
      forged
      > (fabricated!) around the middle of the Second Age, not in the Third;
      but
      > consider that JRRT designed dust jackets for volumes of LotR that
      showed the
      > Ring Inscription with the 'sh' and 'gh' tengwar written with raised,
      rather
      > than extended, stems.
      >
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    • Gildor Inglorion
      teithant scwigglie ... * the runes ... * tolkien provides the sounds ( translations as you say) of various languages.. anyway you can find the westron sounds
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 24 10:51 AM
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        teithant scwigglie

        > But what I mean is, you know how in the back of the
        > book, Tolkien has
        > the symbols for all the letters of tengwar, and all
        > the symbols for
        > the letters of another form of Elvish (or was it the
        > dwarf
        > language?)...but I don't believe he has the same

        * the runes

        > "translation" for the
        > Mordor language. I was wondering if there was
        > anywhere online I could
        > find it?

        * tolkien provides the sounds ("translations" as you
        say) of various languages.. anyway you can find the
        westron sounds in Dan Smith's site

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      • Danny Andri�s
        ... Well, no. There are no experts on the Black Speech, but I have a fondness for the tengwar. ... Symbols? Do you mean the tengwar themselves? ... I guess you
        Message 3 of 4 , Feb 24 12:43 PM
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          Teithant scwigglie:
          >
          >Wow, you are an expert in these languages, aren't you! *<:)
          >
          Well, no. There are no experts on the Black Speech, but I have a fondness
          for the tengwar.

          >But what I mean is, you know how in the back of the book, Tolkien has
          >the symbols for all the letters of tengwar,

          Symbols? Do you mean the tengwar themselves?

          >and all the symbols for
          >the letters of another form of Elvish (or was it the dwarf
          >language?)

          I guess you mean the cirth.

          >...but I don't believe he has the same "translation" for the
          >Mordor language. I was wondering if there was anywhere online I could
          >find it?

          Sorry if I'm dense, but I'm still lost. One doesn't 'translate' letters. I
          assumed that you meant 'transcribe' or 'transliterate', i. e. how to write
          the Black Speech in tengwar, or how the tengwar used in the Black Speech
          would be written with our alphabet. If my previous post didn't address your
          question, then I can't quite grasp what you're asking. What do you mean by
          "translation"?

          Cuio mae, Danny (Uialdil).

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