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  • europa494
    I thought I should introduce myself and my purpose in joining your group. I have always loved languages, and especially love the written languages of the
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 22, 2002
      I thought I should introduce myself and my purpose in joining your group.

      I have always loved languages, and especially love the written
      languages of the world, in particular the exotic ones. After reading
      LOTR and seeing the languages used, I knew I wanted to learn how to
      write in Elvish.

      I also enjoy writing fanfiction, and have posted a few on the internet.

      I know you all have probably seen this question before, but I figured
      the only stupid question os one not asked, so here goes...

      I really want to learn how to write using the Elven charactures,
      because of their beautiful look. Is there a good site out there which
      goes over how to construct sentences in english using the elven alphabet?

      I appreciate any help you can grant me.

      Thank you!
      Tina
    • Meljnsn@aol.com
      In a message dated 2/22/02 10:53:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Ardalambion Is almost like one-stop
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 22, 2002
        In a message dated 2/22/02 10:53:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, europa494@... writes:


        I really want to learn how to write using the Elven charactures,
        because of their beautiful look. Is there a good site out there which
        goes over how to construct sentences in english using the elven alphabet?



        Ardalambion

        Is almost like one-stop shopping.  You can link from there to sites and pages with Tengwar for English (or French, or Russian, or Polish, or....).

        Mel
      • Gildor Inglorion
        teithant europa494 ... * dan smith s fonts are accompanied with a document on how to write Quenya, Sindarin and English... you can visit also
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 23, 2002
          teithant europa494

          > I really want to learn how to write using the Elven
          > charactures,
          > because of their beautiful look. Is there a good
          > site out there which
          > goes over how to construct sentences in english
          > using the elven alphabet?

          * dan smith's fonts are accompanied with a document on
          how to write Quenya, Sindarin and English... you can
          visit also hem.passagen.se/mansb/at where beside that,
          youcan find calligraphic examples and guides...

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        • Danny Andriës
          Okay, Europa494...you want to learn to write English with tengwar. Great! Tolkien himself used a few different modes. The one I find easiest to read is the one
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 23, 2002
            Okay, Europa494...you want to learn to write English with tengwar. Great!
            Tolkien himself used a few different modes. The one I find easiest to read
            is the one used to write the English half of the King's Letter (of which two
            versions can be found in 'Sauron Defeated'). The advantages of this mode are
            the fact it is an invention of JRRT himself, most of the letters necessary
            to represent English are attested, and spelling relies mainly on traditional
            orthography rather than pronunciation. Why is this last one important? The
            way I think I hear a word pronounced might differ from the way you think you
            hear it pronounced and you might not be able to figure out what I'm trying
            to write if I'm writing it phonetically. Believe me ... I've seen it happen!
            A long post follows; This is JRRT's Plain Letters Mode for English as seen
            in 'Sauron Defeated':

            The asterisk (*) is used to mark characters not attested in the King's
            Letter, but which seem logical.
            >
            > a = vilya
            > ai, ay = vilya + 2 over-dots
            > au, aw = vilya + following w sign
            > b = umbar
            > hard c [k] = quesse
            > soft c [s] = silme nuquerna
            > ch [t�] = calma
            > d = ando
            > e = yanta
            > ee = yanta + under-bar
            > ei, ey = yanta + 2 over-dots
            > *eu, ew = yanta + following w sign
            > silent e, schwa = single under-dot
            > f = formen
            > g = ungwe
            > gh (often silent in English) = unque
            > h = hyarmen
            > i = short carrier
            > *j = anga
            > k = quesse
            > l = lambe
            > ll = alda
            > m = malta
            > n = n�men
            > ng = nwalme
            > o = anna
            > oi, oy = anna + 2 over-dots
            > oo = anna + under-bar
            > ou, ow = anna + following w sign
            > p = parma
            > ph = formen
            > *qu = quesse + following w sign
            > r = r�men. �re
            > s = silme
            > sh = harma
            > t = tinco
            > th [�] = th�le
            > th [�] = anto
            > u = vala
            > *ui = vala + 2 over-dots
            > v = ampa
            > w = �re
            > *wh = hwesta sindarinwa
            > * = quesse + s curl
            > y = long carrier
            > *z = esse (�re)
            >
            The choice between 'r�men' and '�re' follows the usual rules (i. e. '�re'
            before consonants, before silent 'e' and at the end of a word; 'r�men'
            before all vowels except silent 'e'.) One
            could conceivably use arda to represent 'rh' (as in 'rhyme') and hwesta
            for 'ch' = [k] (as in 'chemistry'). Tehtar used in this mode are the
            nasal bar (or tilde), the doubling sign (under-bar or under-tilde), the
            s curls (or s hooks), and the following w sign (superimposed reversed
            tilde). The s curls are very useful for plurals and possessives!
            >
            I find this mode MUCH easier to read than the phonetic mode on the LotR
            title page. Also, it uses tengwar rather than tehtar to represent
            vowels, which is more like the writing of English with Roman letters.
            >
            Cuio mae, Danny.




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          • scwigglie
            Where can I find the letter translations of that language?
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 23, 2002
              Where can I find the letter translations of that language?
            • Gildor Inglorion
              teithant scwigglie ... * dan smith s site, Black Speech mode expalnation ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 23, 2002
                teithant scwigglie

                > Where can I find the letter translations of that
                > language?

                * dan smith's site, Black Speech mode expalnation

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              • hisilome
                ... While I agree that this is by and large the best (mostly) orthographic English full mode there is, I do have a couple of comments/questions, ... King s
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 1, 2004
                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Danny Andriës" tegilbor@h...> wrote:

                  While I agree that this is by and large the best (mostly) orthographic
                  English full mode there is, I do have a couple of comments/questions,
                  which I have interspersed in the text in the relevant places:

                  > A long post follows; This is JRRT's Plain Letters Mode for English
                  as seen in 'Sauron Defeated':
                  >
                  > The asterisk (*) is used to mark characters not attested in the
                  King's Letter, but which seem logical.
                  > >
                  > > a = vilya
                  > > ai, ay = vilya + 2 over-dots
                  > > au, aw = vilya + following w sign
                  > > b = umbar
                  > > hard c [k] = quesse
                  > > soft c [s] = silme nuquerna
                  > > ch [tš] = calma

                  One might add here that "ck" seems to be spelled with quesse +
                  under-bar (as in "reckoning").

                  > > d = ando
                  > > e = yanta
                  > > ee = yanta + under-bar
                  > > ei, ey = yanta + 2 over-dots
                  > > *eu, ew = yanta + following w sign
                  > > silent e, schwa = single under-dot
                  > > f = formen
                  > > g = ungwe
                  > > gh (often silent in English) = unque
                  > > h = hyarmen
                  > > i = short carrier
                  > > *j = anga
                  > > k = quesse
                  > > l = lambe
                  > > ll = alda
                  > > m = malta
                  > > n = númen
                  > > ng = nwalme
                  > > o = anna
                  > > oi, oy = anna + 2 over-dots
                  > > oo = anna + under-bar
                  > > ou, ow = anna + following w sign

                  Why not mark "oo" and "ou/ow" with an asterisk? While the assigned
                  tengwa/tehta combinations certainly seem logical, I cannot find these
                  two spellings attested anywhere in the three versions of the King's
                  Letter (English part).

                  > > p = parma
                  > > ph = formen
                  > > *qu = quesse + following w sign
                  > > r = rómen. óre
                  > > s = silme
                  > > sh = harma
                  > > t = tinco
                  > > th [þ] = thúle
                  > > th [ð] = anto
                  > > u = vala
                  > > *ui = vala + 2 over-dots

                  Here I have to ask: why use the asterisk? This is clearly attested in
                  "Baranduin".

                  > > v = ampa
                  > > w = úre
                  > > *wh = hwesta sindarinwa
                  > > * = quesse + s curl
                  > > y = long carrier
                  > > *z = esse (áre)
                  > >
                  > The choice between 'rómen' and 'óre' follows the usual rules (i. e.
                  'óre' before consonants, before silent 'e' and at the end of a word;

                  Not necessarily, it seems. Sometimes rómen is used before a silent
                  "e", as consistently seen in the phrase "Mayor of the SHIRE".
                  Furthermore, word-final "r" is _usually_ also spelt with rómen if the
                  next word begins with a vowel (i.e. pronounced "r" is as a rule
                  spelled with rómen, even at the end of words).

                  'rómen' before all vowels except silent 'e'.)

                  Not necessarily (see above).
                  Notice also that once (third copy) the "re" in "Shire" is spelt with
                  óre - yanta (but that is probably just a "slip-up".

                  Hisilome


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                • j_mach_wust
                  ... I prefer the r-representation with óre alone (and consequently the w-representation with rómen) as in DTS 10 and 13. ... Maybe he s confused it with DTS
                  Message 8 of 9 , Nov 1, 2004
                    hisilome wrote:
                    > While I agree that this is by and large the best (mostly)
                    > orthographic English full mode there is,

                    I prefer the r-representation with óre alone (and consequently the
                    w-representation with rómen) as in DTS 10 and 13.

                    Danny Andriës wrote (in message #651):
                    > > > ou, ow = anna + following w sign

                    hisilome commented:
                    > Why not mark "oo" and "ou/ow" with an asterisk? While the assigned
                    > tengwa/tehta combinations certainly seem logical, I cannot find
                    > these two spellings attested anywhere in the three versions of the
                    > King's Letter (English part).

                    Maybe he's confused it with DTS 10 and 13 where we have many instances
                    of both sounds? I believe there's no problem about using certain
                    spellings from DTS 10/13 as evidence for the spelling of the King's
                    Letters and vice versa, since they're basically the same.

                    > > The choice between 'rómen' and 'óre' follows the usual rules (i.
                    > > e. 'óre' before consonants, before silent 'e' and at the end of a
                    > > word;
                    >
                    > Not necessarily, it seems. Sometimes rómen is used before a silent
                    > "e", as consistently seen in the phrase "Mayor of the SHIRE".
                    > Furthermore, word-final "r" is _usually_ also spelt with rómen if
                    > the next word begins with a vowel (i.e. pronounced "r" is as a rule
                    > spelled with rómen, even at the end of words).

                    That's true.

                    > Notice also that once (third copy) the "re" in "Shire" is spelt with
                    > óre - yanta (but that is probably just a "slip-up").

                    I'd agree it's a slip-up.

                    ---------------------------
                    j. 'mach' wust
                    http://machhezan.tripod.com
                    ---------------------------
                  • Dave
                    j_mach_wust wrote: I prefer the r-representation with óre alone (and consequently the w-representation with rómen) as in DTS 10 and 13. [Yes, that
                    Message 9 of 9 , Nov 1, 2004
                      j_mach_wust wrote:<>

                      I prefer the r-representation with óre alone (and consequently the
                      w-representation with rómen) as in DTS 10 and 13.

                      [Yes, that certainly simplifies matters.]

                      Danny Andriës wrote (in message #651):
                      > > > ou, ow = anna + following w sign

                      hisilome commented:
                      > Why not mark "oo" and "ou/ow" with an asterisk? While the assigned
                      > tengwa/tehta combinations certainly seem logical, I cannot find
                      > these two spellings attested anywhere in the three versions of the
                      > King's Letter (English part).

                      Maybe he's confused it with DTS 10 and 13 where we have many instances
                      of both sounds? I believe there's no problem about using certain
                      spellings from DTS 10/13 as evidence for the spelling of the King's
                      Letters and vice versa, since they're basically the same.

                      <>[I have no problem with doing so either. But Danny Andriës said his
                      suggestions were based solely on the King's Letter, that's why I was
                      confused.]
                      <>
                      > Notice also that once (third copy) the "re" in "Shire" is spelt with
                      > óre - yanta (but that is probably just a "slip-up").

                      I'd agree it's a slip-up.

                      [BTW, still waiting for somebody's comments on the "R-rule" (if any) in
                      the Full Mode of Gondor (message 4304):-). Really no pattern at all?]

                      Hisilome




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