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Re: [elfscript] Re: Getting a Tattoo in Elvish

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  • Melroch 'Aestan
    ... IMHO the mode choosen would depend on what **kind** of Latin one wants to represent, and indeed how one would want it to be read out. For Classical Latin I
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 12, 2007
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      j_mach_wust skrev:
      > Johan Winge:
      >> On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:50:41 +0100, elmac526
      >> <elmac526@...> wrote:
      >>> So, basically, any one of those in your link would work?
      >>> And you prefer the first line because it is consistant
      >>> (with the long carriers) and uses the Quenya order of
      >>> writing?
      >> That would be more or less my reasoning, yes, but those
      >> things are all a matter of opinion. My point is that all
      >> would be acceptable,
      >
      > I'd prefer a representation of Latin shaped after
      > Tolkien's own Latin tengwar text (DTS 41), that is to say,
      > a 'general use' mode with the tehtar placed on the
      > preceding letters and with Latin vowel length opposition
      > not represented.

      IMHO the mode choosen would depend on what **kind** of Latin
      one wants to represent, and indeed how one would want it to
      be read out. For Classical Latin I would prefer a mode
      closely modelled on the 'standard' Quenya mode, as the two
      languages have similar phonologies. If Medieval or even New
      Latin is concerned, one may indeed want to reflect a
      different pronunciation -- even one of the 'national'
      pronunciations. As for DTS 41 it should be noted that these
      are botanical terms, and an English speaker would read those
      out in the English pronunciation, even if s/he used the
      restored pronunciation when reading Latin text.

      Tehta order should IMO be based on the ratio between vowel-
      final and consonant final words in the language -- I
      actually have a Perl script that can calculate such things.
      For some languages like Swedish, where the ratio is almost
      50/50 and practically any vowel can occur finally one may
      use either order. For a language like German with many
      consonant-
      final words and where the vast majority of final vowels are
      _e_, pronounced as schwa, I would use tehtar on following
      tengwar (or as I call it top-down) and the underdot for
      unstressed _e_ following a consonant. For Latin which has
      predominantly vowel-final words I'd definitely use tehtar on
      preceding tengwar (aka bottom-up). However if one marks
      vowel length, as one IMO should in Classical Latin it is in
      fact the case that most final vowels are long, and so would
      have a carrier anyway!
      --

      /BP 8^)>
      --
      Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
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      / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
      / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
      /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
      Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
      ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
      || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||

      "I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody
      is altogether on my side" -- Fangorn
    • Johan Winge
      ... That would be more or less my reasoning, yes, but those things are all a matter of opinion. My point is that all would be acceptable, (though I personally
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 12, 2007
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        On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:50:41 +0100, elmac526 <elmac526@...> wrote:
        >
        > So, basically, any one of those in your link would work? And you
        > prefer the first line because it is consistant (with the long
        > carriers) and uses the Quenya order of writing?

        That would be more or less my reasoning, yes, but those things are all a
        matter of opinion. My point is that all would be acceptable, (though I
        personally do not particularly fancy doubled tehtar, for example; on the
        matter of tehta-order in Latin, I have, as of yet, really no fixed
        opinion.)

        > I also noticed it
        > used the other silme, does the Quenya order require this or can the
        > other one be used as well?

        No, any variant is fine. I used it only because I think it looks neat (and
        because I could).

        On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 21:41:24 +0100, Palatinus <elfiness@...> wrote:
        >
        > The point with Quenya (or else) order of writing has to do with whether
        > most words end on vowels or consonants
        >
        > Quenya's words end mostly onvowels so vowels as read like following all
        > the consonants

        Well, that is one common argument, but I don't know if it is the whole
        truth. For example, I would expect the syllable structure of the language
        to have some influence on this.

        > I don't know which is true about Latin

        Me neither, so I made some informal research on the matter. It seems that
        words ending in vowels are slightly more common than words beginning with
        vowels. For example, in Pliny's letters, we have about 14283 words
        beginning with a vowel (and ending with a consonant) and about 18110 words
        ending with a vowel (even when removing the ubiquitous vale, 'farewell'),
        that is, a 27% difference. An analysis of two of Cicero's speeches gives
        the numbers 1412 and 1664, i.e. 18%. (The analysis got somewhat impeded by
        the fact that I had troubles locating a good corpus: I had to find texts
        that distinguished between "j" (consonant) and "i", but it is
        unfortunately much more common with editions that don't do this
        distinction.)

        Whichever mode is used in this case, it is fortunate that the inital word,
        "quod", gives an interpretation key for the reader who doesn't know what
        mode is used: in most languages (that I am familiar with anyway), the
        consonant cluster /kd/ is not very likely to be word final, and definitely
        not likely to be word initial. Hence, the reader is forced to assume that
        the vowel comes in between, and from that, the tehta order of the text is
        deduced.

        --
        Johan Winge
      • j_mach_wust
        ... I d prefer a representation of Latin shaped after Tolkien s own Latin tengwar text (DTS 41), that is to say, a general use mode with the tehtar placed on
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 12, 2007
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          Johan Winge:
          >
          > On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:50:41 +0100, elmac526 <elmac526@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > So, basically, any one of those in your link would work? And you
          > > prefer the first line because it is consistant (with the long
          > > carriers) and uses the Quenya order of writing?
          >
          > That would be more or less my reasoning, yes, but those things are
          > all a matter of opinion. My point is that all would be acceptable,

          I'd prefer a representation of Latin shaped after Tolkien's own Latin
          tengwar text (DTS 41), that is to say, a 'general use' mode with the
          tehtar placed on the preceding letters and with Latin vowel length
          opposition not represented.

          > > Quenya's words end mostly onvowels so vowels as read like
          > > following all the consonants
          >
          > Well, that is one common argument, but I don't know if it is the
          > whole truth. For example, I would expect the syllable structure of
          > the language to have some influence on this.

          That's what I'd expect too. More specifically, I'd expect that the
          VC-order is used in languages that have constraints on final vowels,
          like for instance in the Germanic languages where words must not end
          on checked vowels.

          But then, the tehtar-tengwar order is not that fixed. For English,
          Quenya and Old English we have both orders attested.

          grüess
          mach
        • j_mach_wust
          ... I was not referring to the botanical terms in DTS 41 which are represented in their English pronunciation anyway, but to the Latin phrase. And I don t see
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 13, 2007
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            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Melroch 'Aestan <melroch@...> wrote:
            >
            > j_mach_wust skrev:
            ...
            > > I'd prefer a representation of Latin shaped after
            > > Tolkien's own Latin tengwar text (DTS 41), that is to say,
            > > a 'general use' mode with the tehtar placed on the
            > > preceding letters and with Latin vowel length opposition
            > > not represented.
            >
            > IMHO the mode choosen would depend on what **kind** of Latin
            > one wants to represent, and indeed how one would want it to
            > be read out. For Classical Latin I would prefer a mode
            > closely modelled on the 'standard' Quenya mode, as the two
            > languages have similar phonologies. If Medieval or even New
            > Latin is concerned, one may indeed want to reflect a
            > different pronunciation -- even one of the 'national'
            > pronunciations. As for DTS 41 it should be noted that these
            > are botanical terms, and an English speaker would read those
            > out in the English pronunciation, even if s/he used the
            > restored pronunciation when reading Latin text.

            I was not referring to the botanical terms in DTS 41 which are
            represented in their English pronunciation anyway, but to the Latin
            phrase. And I don't see any need to invent a new unattested mode based
            on the classical Quenya mode when it is no problem to represent Latin
            according to the 'general use' of the tengwar; â€" and more than that:
            It's not only no problem, but also attested. Certainly, the phrase
            from DTS 41 is not classical pronunciation of Latin, but the classical
            pronunciation can easily be represented in the same mode.

            The decision whether to write according to the 'general use' or
            whether to invent a new mode based on classical Quenya, only concerns
            the very first letter of the phrase which would be spelled with an
            additional modified left curl according to the 'general use'.

            > Swedish, where [...] practically any vowel can occur finally

            Doesn't Swedish have checked vowels, that is, vowels that can only
            occur in closed syllables? Or is it because of these that you've
            written "practically"? I'm curious because I boldly presumed all
            Germanic languages had checked vowels.

            grüess
            mach
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