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Re: How to write Sindarin and Quenya in Cirth?

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  • elfiness
    ... What do you mean? What sounds? I think they are all there. Y is number 45 And yes, some sounds exist in Quenya, I guess that usage was used in Eregion
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 27, 2006
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      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "i_aran_elenion" <ivyofeternity@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > According to the appendix, Cirth was originally invented to write
      > Sindarin. Yet the table doen't seem to provide all the sounds that
      > occur in Sindarin, such as the vowel 'y' or the dipthongs. What all the
      > values of these sounds? And is it possible write Quenya in Cirth?
      >

      What do you mean? What sounds? I think they are all there. Y is number 45

      And yes, some sounds exist in Quenya, I guess that usage was used in
      Eregion
    • Melroch 'Aestan
      ... How to write Sindarin is really no mystery if you read Appendix E carefully. Only remember that what is usually transcribed _ch_ in Sindarin is transcribed
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 28, 2006
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        i_aran_elenion skrev:
        > According to the appendix, Cirth was originally invented
        > to write Sindarin. Yet the table doen't seem to provide
        > all the sounds that occur in Sindarin, such as the vowel
        > 'y' or the dipthongs.

        How to write Sindarin is really no mystery if you read
        Appendix E carefully. Only remember that what is usually
        transcribed _ch_ in Sindarin is transcribed _kh_, in the
        Cirth chart, that _n_ is certh #12 and _ng_ is certh #22 --
        i.e. generally where there are two values separated by a
        dash the one to the left is the older, 'Elvish' one, to
        be used when writing Sindarin. As for _y_ it is
        obviously certh
        #45: _ü_ is merely the German way of writing the vowel [y],
        and Tolkien choose it because elswhere in the chart he used
        _y_ for a consonant, as in English _year_ or Quenya _yén_.
        Also the long vowels are usually written with an acute or
        circumflex -- e.g. _ú, û_ --, but in the chart they are
        marked with the more 'scientific' macron -- a horizontal
        line above the vowel letter -- e.g. certh #43 corresponds to
        _ú, û_. There is no sign for long _í/î_ in the chart;
        presumably it was written with certh #39 doubled -- e.g.
        _chîn_ = {20-39-39-12}. Last but not least _h_ (outside the
        digraphs _ch, dh, (gh, mh,) ph, th_) is written with any of
        cirth #13, #15 or #54 in Sindarin, and _ss_ is presumably
        certh #36.

        > What all the values of these sounds? And is it possible
        > write Quenya in Cirth?

        Of course it is; that's what the additions by the Noldor of
        Eregion were intended for, after all! The problem is that we
        can't be absolutely sure about the values, since the values
        in the chart in Appendix E are oriented towards Sindarin and
        Westron (the latter in practice meaning English). The main
        problem is how the Quenya palatals _ty (ndy,) ny, ry, ly, y,
        hy_ were written. My hopefully educated guess is that the
        cirth #13-17 were used, namely:

        #13. ty
        #14. (ndy) -- e.g. the archaic spelling _Quendya_
        #15. hy
        #16. y -- it clearly can't be certh #40 since that is marked
        as a Dwarvish addition, nor certh #39, since
        there are potential minimal pairs with _ye_ vs.
        _ie_ in Quenya, e.g. _ #valye_ vs. _Valie_.
        #17. ny -- there is an unpublished longer version of
        Appendix E which confirms that #17 could be
        used for _ny_.

        Cf. what is said about the equivalence between Westron _ch_
        and Quenya _ty_, Westron _sh_ and Quenya _hy_ in the
        "Pronunciation of Words and Names" at the beginning of
        Appendix E (under the letters TY and Y respectively.)

        Then only remains the question of how to write _ry_ and
        _ly_: at least it is probably not wrong to write {29-16} and
        {31-16}. This may be compared to the fact that the names of
        the tengwar imply that _hy_ and _y_ originally had their own
        tengwar, while everything points to _ny, ry_ and _ly_ always
        being expressed with a diacritic.

        The rules for _h, s, ss_ are presumably the same as in
        Sindarin.

        Probably Quenya _s_ of different origin would be written
        with two different cirth #34/35 vs. #10, and _n_ of
        different origin with cirth #12 or #22, just as in Tengwar
        spelling, but OTOH Tolkien frequently flouted this rule when
        writing Quenya with Tengwar.

        Since there is no real need to distinguish between _ñ_
        (certh #22) and _ñg_ (certh #33) in Quenya or Sindarin I'm
        often tempted to use certh #33 for _ld_ analogous to Tengwar
        usage, but there is of course not even a hint that Tolkien
        might have done that!
        --

        /BP 8^)>
        --
        Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
        A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
        __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
        \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
        / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
        / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
        /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
        Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
        ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
        || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||

        "I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody
        is altogether on my side" -- Fangorn
      • i_aran_elenion
        Thanks, Melroch. A few questions. So. The diphthongs. They are written as in they are written in alphabet, seperately, unlike in tengwar mode in which they use
        Message 3 of 6 , Dec 28, 2006
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          Thanks, Melroch. A few questions.
          So. The diphthongs. They are written as in they are written in
          alphabet, seperately, unlike in tengwar mode in which they use
          distinct letters?
          And what do the dots beneath the cirth 7.22.38.52,33 symbolize? Are
          they part of the cirth? (Crith 38 and 52 particularly adds my
          confusion, in which two cirths seem to exist for one value)
        • Melroch 'Aestan
          ... Yes probably. In the Book of Mazarbul facsimile there are a number of extra cirth for English vowel digraphs, but I wouldn t venture into using them for
          Message 4 of 6 , Dec 28, 2006
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            i_aran_elenion skrev:
            > Thanks, Melroch. A few questions. So. The diphthongs. They
            > are written as in they are written in alphabet,
            > seperately, unlike in tengwar mode in which they use
            > distinct letters?

            Yes probably. In the Book of Mazarbul facsimile there are a
            number of extra cirth for English vowel digraphs, but I
            wouldn't venture into using them for Sindarin or Quenya
            vowels, but just write _ae_ {48-46}, _ai_ {48-39} _au_ {48-
            42} and so on.

            > And what do the dots beneath the cirth 7.22.38.52,33
            > symbolize? Are they part of the cirth?

            No, they are not part of the cirth, but serve to subdivide
            the table into groups similar to the columns and the
            horizontal line in the Tengwar table. This is an old source
            of confusion; apparently this isn't as obvious as Tolkien
            thought if you don't know phonetics.

            > (Crith 38 and 52 particularly adds my confusion, in which
            > two cirths seem to exist for one value)

            Yes, they are just variants of a single certh, although in
            the Book of Mazarbul facsimile the two variants of certh #38
            are used for _ou_ and _nj_ respectively for writing English.

            BTW, some points of (Sindarin) terminology:

            + _certh_ = 'rune' (singular)
            + _cirth_ = 'runes' (plural)
            + _certhas_ = 'rune-alphabet'
            + _angerthas_ = 'long rune-alphabet'

            This is a Frequently Encountered Misunderstanding due to the
            rather different way English and Sindarin form plurals!

            You mentioned in your answer to elfiness that:
            > As for no.45. I never imagined it would be used for the
            > vowel 'y' because it had a u with diaresis.

            The German _Umlaut_ and the Greek-derived _diaeresis_
            unfortunately look the same -- two dots above -- in modern
            fonts, but they are different in origin:

            1. the diaeresis was always two dots, and is used to
            indicate that two consecutive vowel letters are to be
            pronounced separately, or (as in Tolkien's Roman spelling
            of Quenya) that a vowel which should normally be silent
            according to English reading rules should be pronounced.

            2. the umlaut (which literally means 'sound shift') was
            originally a tiny _e_ written atop a back vowel _a, o_ or
            _u_ to indicate that it should be pronounced as a front
            vowel. These sounds don't exist in modern English, and
            neither did they in Westron, where Sindarin _y_ was
            pronounced the same as _i_. I don't know why German
            printers started to use a diaeresis as umlaut -- perhaps
            because they used French-produced lead type where the
            proper signs were missing. Anyway the use of the double
            dot to indicate a change in pronunciation is found in
            several European languages beside German, and got adopted
            from there by 19th century historical linguists. Tolkien
            of course was a spiritual descendant of them, and was
            seemingly untroubled about using the double dot above for
            two different purposes.


            --

            /BP 8^)>
            --
            Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
            A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
            __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
            \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
            / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
            / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
            /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
            Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
            ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
            || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||

            "I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody
            is altogether on my side" -- Fangorn
          • Palatinus
            The dots indicate the separate sets of Cirth in the list, they are not part of the letters themselves ... From: i_aran_elenion
            Message 5 of 6 , Dec 28, 2006
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              The dots indicate the separate 'sets' of Cirth in the list, they are not part of the letters themselves

              ----- Original Message ----
              From: i_aran_elenion <ivyofeternity@...>
              To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 3:35:48 PM
              Subject: [elfscript] Re: How to write Sindarin and Quenya in Cirth?













              Thanks, Melroch. A few questions.

              So. The diphthongs. They are written as in they are written in

              alphabet, seperately, unlike in tengwar mode in which they use

              distinct letters?

              And what do the dots beneath the cirth 7.22.38.52,33 symbolize? Are

              they part of the cirth? (Crith 38 and 52 particularly adds my

              confusion, in which two cirths seem to exist for one value)














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