Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

How to write Sindarin and Quenya in Cirth?

Expand Messages
  • i_aran_elenion
    According to the appendix, Cirth was originally invented to write Sindarin. Yet the table doen t seem to provide all the sounds that occur in Sindarin, such as
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 25, 2006
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      According to the appendix, Cirth was originally invented to write
      Sindarin. Yet the table doen't seem to provide all the sounds that
      occur in Sindarin, such as the vowel 'y' or the dipthongs. What all the
      values of these sounds? And is it possible write Quenya in Cirth?
    • elfiness
      ... What do you mean? What sounds? I think they are all there. Y is number 45 And yes, some sounds exist in Quenya, I guess that usage was used in Eregion
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 27, 2006
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "i_aran_elenion" <ivyofeternity@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > According to the appendix, Cirth was originally invented to write
        > Sindarin. Yet the table doen't seem to provide all the sounds that
        > occur in Sindarin, such as the vowel 'y' or the dipthongs. What all the
        > values of these sounds? And is it possible write Quenya in Cirth?
        >

        What do you mean? What sounds? I think they are all there. Y is number 45

        And yes, some sounds exist in Quenya, I guess that usage was used in
        Eregion
      • Melroch 'Aestan
        ... How to write Sindarin is really no mystery if you read Appendix E carefully. Only remember that what is usually transcribed _ch_ in Sindarin is transcribed
        Message 3 of 6 , Dec 28, 2006
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          i_aran_elenion skrev:
          > According to the appendix, Cirth was originally invented
          > to write Sindarin. Yet the table doen't seem to provide
          > all the sounds that occur in Sindarin, such as the vowel
          > 'y' or the dipthongs.

          How to write Sindarin is really no mystery if you read
          Appendix E carefully. Only remember that what is usually
          transcribed _ch_ in Sindarin is transcribed _kh_, in the
          Cirth chart, that _n_ is certh #12 and _ng_ is certh #22 --
          i.e. generally where there are two values separated by a
          dash the one to the left is the older, 'Elvish' one, to
          be used when writing Sindarin. As for _y_ it is
          obviously certh
          #45: _ü_ is merely the German way of writing the vowel [y],
          and Tolkien choose it because elswhere in the chart he used
          _y_ for a consonant, as in English _year_ or Quenya _yén_.
          Also the long vowels are usually written with an acute or
          circumflex -- e.g. _ú, û_ --, but in the chart they are
          marked with the more 'scientific' macron -- a horizontal
          line above the vowel letter -- e.g. certh #43 corresponds to
          _ú, û_. There is no sign for long _í/î_ in the chart;
          presumably it was written with certh #39 doubled -- e.g.
          _chîn_ = {20-39-39-12}. Last but not least _h_ (outside the
          digraphs _ch, dh, (gh, mh,) ph, th_) is written with any of
          cirth #13, #15 or #54 in Sindarin, and _ss_ is presumably
          certh #36.

          > What all the values of these sounds? And is it possible
          > write Quenya in Cirth?

          Of course it is; that's what the additions by the Noldor of
          Eregion were intended for, after all! The problem is that we
          can't be absolutely sure about the values, since the values
          in the chart in Appendix E are oriented towards Sindarin and
          Westron (the latter in practice meaning English). The main
          problem is how the Quenya palatals _ty (ndy,) ny, ry, ly, y,
          hy_ were written. My hopefully educated guess is that the
          cirth #13-17 were used, namely:

          #13. ty
          #14. (ndy) -- e.g. the archaic spelling _Quendya_
          #15. hy
          #16. y -- it clearly can't be certh #40 since that is marked
          as a Dwarvish addition, nor certh #39, since
          there are potential minimal pairs with _ye_ vs.
          _ie_ in Quenya, e.g. _ #valye_ vs. _Valie_.
          #17. ny -- there is an unpublished longer version of
          Appendix E which confirms that #17 could be
          used for _ny_.

          Cf. what is said about the equivalence between Westron _ch_
          and Quenya _ty_, Westron _sh_ and Quenya _hy_ in the
          "Pronunciation of Words and Names" at the beginning of
          Appendix E (under the letters TY and Y respectively.)

          Then only remains the question of how to write _ry_ and
          _ly_: at least it is probably not wrong to write {29-16} and
          {31-16}. This may be compared to the fact that the names of
          the tengwar imply that _hy_ and _y_ originally had their own
          tengwar, while everything points to _ny, ry_ and _ly_ always
          being expressed with a diacritic.

          The rules for _h, s, ss_ are presumably the same as in
          Sindarin.

          Probably Quenya _s_ of different origin would be written
          with two different cirth #34/35 vs. #10, and _n_ of
          different origin with cirth #12 or #22, just as in Tengwar
          spelling, but OTOH Tolkien frequently flouted this rule when
          writing Quenya with Tengwar.

          Since there is no real need to distinguish between _ñ_
          (certh #22) and _ñg_ (certh #33) in Quenya or Sindarin I'm
          often tempted to use certh #33 for _ld_ analogous to Tengwar
          usage, but there is of course not even a hint that Tolkien
          might have done that!
          --

          /BP 8^)>
          --
          Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
          A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
          __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
          \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
          / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
          / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
          /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
          Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
          ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
          || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||

          "I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody
          is altogether on my side" -- Fangorn
        • i_aran_elenion
          Thanks, Melroch. A few questions. So. The diphthongs. They are written as in they are written in alphabet, seperately, unlike in tengwar mode in which they use
          Message 4 of 6 , Dec 28, 2006
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks, Melroch. A few questions.
            So. The diphthongs. They are written as in they are written in
            alphabet, seperately, unlike in tengwar mode in which they use
            distinct letters?
            And what do the dots beneath the cirth 7.22.38.52,33 symbolize? Are
            they part of the cirth? (Crith 38 and 52 particularly adds my
            confusion, in which two cirths seem to exist for one value)
          • Melroch 'Aestan
            ... Yes probably. In the Book of Mazarbul facsimile there are a number of extra cirth for English vowel digraphs, but I wouldn t venture into using them for
            Message 5 of 6 , Dec 28, 2006
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              i_aran_elenion skrev:
              > Thanks, Melroch. A few questions. So. The diphthongs. They
              > are written as in they are written in alphabet,
              > seperately, unlike in tengwar mode in which they use
              > distinct letters?

              Yes probably. In the Book of Mazarbul facsimile there are a
              number of extra cirth for English vowel digraphs, but I
              wouldn't venture into using them for Sindarin or Quenya
              vowels, but just write _ae_ {48-46}, _ai_ {48-39} _au_ {48-
              42} and so on.

              > And what do the dots beneath the cirth 7.22.38.52,33
              > symbolize? Are they part of the cirth?

              No, they are not part of the cirth, but serve to subdivide
              the table into groups similar to the columns and the
              horizontal line in the Tengwar table. This is an old source
              of confusion; apparently this isn't as obvious as Tolkien
              thought if you don't know phonetics.

              > (Crith 38 and 52 particularly adds my confusion, in which
              > two cirths seem to exist for one value)

              Yes, they are just variants of a single certh, although in
              the Book of Mazarbul facsimile the two variants of certh #38
              are used for _ou_ and _nj_ respectively for writing English.

              BTW, some points of (Sindarin) terminology:

              + _certh_ = 'rune' (singular)
              + _cirth_ = 'runes' (plural)
              + _certhas_ = 'rune-alphabet'
              + _angerthas_ = 'long rune-alphabet'

              This is a Frequently Encountered Misunderstanding due to the
              rather different way English and Sindarin form plurals!

              You mentioned in your answer to elfiness that:
              > As for no.45. I never imagined it would be used for the
              > vowel 'y' because it had a u with diaresis.

              The German _Umlaut_ and the Greek-derived _diaeresis_
              unfortunately look the same -- two dots above -- in modern
              fonts, but they are different in origin:

              1. the diaeresis was always two dots, and is used to
              indicate that two consecutive vowel letters are to be
              pronounced separately, or (as in Tolkien's Roman spelling
              of Quenya) that a vowel which should normally be silent
              according to English reading rules should be pronounced.

              2. the umlaut (which literally means 'sound shift') was
              originally a tiny _e_ written atop a back vowel _a, o_ or
              _u_ to indicate that it should be pronounced as a front
              vowel. These sounds don't exist in modern English, and
              neither did they in Westron, where Sindarin _y_ was
              pronounced the same as _i_. I don't know why German
              printers started to use a diaeresis as umlaut -- perhaps
              because they used French-produced lead type where the
              proper signs were missing. Anyway the use of the double
              dot to indicate a change in pronunciation is found in
              several European languages beside German, and got adopted
              from there by 19th century historical linguists. Tolkien
              of course was a spiritual descendant of them, and was
              seemingly untroubled about using the double dot above for
              two different purposes.


              --

              /BP 8^)>
              --
              Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
              A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
              __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
              \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
              / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
              / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
              /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
              Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
              ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
              || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||

              "I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody
              is altogether on my side" -- Fangorn
            • Palatinus
              The dots indicate the separate sets of Cirth in the list, they are not part of the letters themselves ... From: i_aran_elenion
              Message 6 of 6 , Dec 28, 2006
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                The dots indicate the separate 'sets' of Cirth in the list, they are not part of the letters themselves

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: i_aran_elenion <ivyofeternity@...>
                To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 3:35:48 PM
                Subject: [elfscript] Re: How to write Sindarin and Quenya in Cirth?













                Thanks, Melroch. A few questions.

                So. The diphthongs. They are written as in they are written in

                alphabet, seperately, unlike in tengwar mode in which they use

                distinct letters?

                And what do the dots beneath the cirth 7.22.38.52,33 symbolize? Are

                they part of the cirth? (Crith 38 and 52 particularly adds my

                confusion, in which two cirths seem to exist for one value)














                <!--

                #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;}
                #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
                #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;}
                #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}
                #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
                #ygrp-text{
                font-family:Georgia;
                }
                #ygrp-text p{
                margin:0 0 1em 0;
                }
                #ygrp-tpmsgs{
                font-family:Arial;
                clear:both;
                }
                #ygrp-vitnav{
                padding-top:10px;
                font-family:Verdana;
                font-size:77%;
                margin:0;
                }
                #ygrp-vitnav a{
                padding:0 1px;
                }
                #ygrp-actbar{
                clear:both;
                margin:25px 0;
                white-space:nowrap;
                color:#666;
                text-align:right;
                }
                #ygrp-actbar .left{
                float:left;
                white-space:nowrap;
                }
                .bld{font-weight:bold;}
                #ygrp-grft{
                font-family:Verdana;
                font-size:77%;
                padding:15px 0;
                }
                #ygrp-ft{
                font-family:verdana;
                font-size:77%;
                border-top:1px solid #666;
                padding:5px 0;
                }
                #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
                padding-bottom:10px;
                }

                #ygrp-vital{
                background-color:#e0ecee;
                margin-bottom:20px;
                padding:2px 0 8px 8px;
                }
                #ygrp-vital #vithd{
                font-size:77%;
                font-family:Verdana;
                font-weight:bold;
                color:#333;
                text-transform:uppercase;
                }
                #ygrp-vital ul{
                padding:0;
                margin:2px 0;
                }
                #ygrp-vital ul li{
                list-style-type:none;
                clear:both;
                border:1px solid #e0ecee;
                }
                #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
                font-weight:bold;
                color:#ff7900;
                float:right;
                width:2em;
                text-align:right;
                padding-right:.5em;
                }
                #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
                font-weight:bold;
                }
                #ygrp-vital a {
                text-decoration:none;
                }

                #ygrp-vital a:hover{
                text-decoration:underline;
                }

                #ygrp-sponsor #hd{
                color:#999;
                font-size:77%;
                }
                #ygrp-sponsor #ov{
                padding:6px 13px;
                background-color:#e0ecee;
                margin-bottom:20px;
                }
                #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
                padding:0 0 0 8px;
                margin:0;
                }
                #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
                list-style-type:square;
                padding:6px 0;
                font-size:77%;
                }
                #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
                text-decoration:none;
                font-size:130%;
                }
                #ygrp-sponsor #nc {
                background-color:#eee;
                margin-bottom:20px;
                padding:0 8px;
                }
                #ygrp-sponsor .ad{
                padding:8px 0;
                }
                #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
                font-family:Arial;
                font-weight:bold;
                color:#628c2a;
                font-size:100%;
                line-height:122%;
                }
                #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
                text-decoration:none;
                }
                #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
                text-decoration:underline;
                }
                #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
                margin:0;
                }
                o {font-size:0;}
                .MsoNormal {
                margin:0 0 0 0;
                }
                #ygrp-text tt{
                font-size:120%;
                }
                blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;}
                .replbq {margin:4;}
                -->












                ___________________________________________________________
                �������������� Yahoo!;
                ���������� �� ���������� �������� (spam); �� Yahoo! Mail
                �������� ��� �������� ������ ��������� ���� ��� �����������
                ��������� http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.