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Re: Attempted tranlation of Kingswood

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  • arantauri
    ... idea i ... is Kingswood . ... is arandor . ... language ... another). ... second ... script. ... know ... you ... translation ... the ... now, ...
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 7, 2006
      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > arantauri wrote:
      > ...
      > > You might have seen the new file I've added and this is the
      idea i
      > > have for my tattoo. The word i am trying to translate
      is 'Kingswood'.
      > > I translated it into Quenya as 'arantauri' (aran - king, tauri -
      > > greatwood / forest) as the translation of 'kingsland'
      is 'arandor'.
      > > And then tranlated the quenya into tengwar.
      > >
      > > The two small characters before are (hopefully) 'V' and 'E' for
      > > Veon and Eruwen.
      > ...
      >
      > It's helpful to distinguish between 'translation' (from one
      language
      > to another) and 'transcription' (from one writing system to
      another).
      > Your first step was to translate from English to Quenya, your
      second
      > step was to transcribe from the Latin alphabet to the tengwar
      script.
      > I am not qualified to comment on your translation, since I don't
      know
      > enough of Quenya. I can only comment on your transcription. If you
      > search for more comments on your translation, then I'd recommend
      you
      > to go to the group elfling:
      >
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/
      >
      > Now to comment on your transcription (supposing that your
      translation
      > 'arantauri' is all right):
      >
      > That's well done! The only thing you need to correct is not to put
      the
      > first a-sign on a long carrier, but on a short carrier. As it is
      now,
      > it'd be read 'árantauri'. Then, you should abbreviate the 'n':
      Instead
      > of writing it with its own letter (númen), you better express it
      by a
      > bar put above the following t-letter (tinco). This is consistently
      > found in Tolkien's own samples.
      >
      > You might choose to write the 'au' not by an a-sign first and then
      an
      > u-sign on a short carrier, but with an a-sign above the letter úre
      > (which looks like the Latin small letter 'o'). That's right, the
      > a-sign wouldn't be on the preceding t-letter tinco, but on the
      > following letter. That's because the letter úre is a special
      letter to
      > invert the normal reading direction in order to more comfortably
      > express sounds like 'au eu ou iu'. This is often found in Tolkien's
      > samples, but not always, so your proposal is fine as well.
      >
      > You also might want to use the 'classical' Quenya orthography, not
      the
      > 'general use' orthography as in your proposal. In that case, you'd
      > express the whole group of 'nt' by the single letter anto.
      > Additionally, the 'classical' Quenya orthography uses letter úre
      for
      > 'v', not the letter ampa. Tolkien has used both the 'classical'
      > orthography and the 'general use' for the transcription of Quenya.
      The
      > 'general use' may be more typical for humans, while the 'classical'
      > orthography may be the original Elven usage (I think we don't know
      for
      > sure).
      >
      > Well, this has become rather lengthy. It's not easy to properly
      > explain the different options. Please ask if you have (not)
      understand
      > anything at all...
      >
      > ---------------------------
      > j. 'mach' wust
      > http://machhezan.tripod.com
      > ---------------------------
      >
      Thank you very much for your comments, all of which are very
      helpfull and I'm happy to say that i understand them (after a little
      thought). I did mention i am a novice linguist but i should not have
      made simple mistakes like 'translation' and 'transcription'!!

      I had susspected that i should have used a short carrier for the
      first 'A', thanks for putting me straight. The reason i did that was
      i suspected it might have also changed the sound of the 'A' for our
      english version of a capital, silly mistake no. 2!

      As for not using the clasical version of the tengwar i was trying
      to keep things simple for me but i was tempted by the letter 'anto'.
      Do u know which was the original mode that Féonor was said to have
      devised?

      Thanks again for your help with the transciption, all i need is to
      check the translation into Quenya (which i hope is more accurate)and
      i can go ahead. I have been designing this for a long time and i
      dont't want to get some random gibberish on my arm!

      ta,Arantauri
    • hisilome
      ... Hm. Doesn t the classical Quenya mode employ vala or vilya (w v) for v (i.e. the sound usually expressed by ampa in English or Sindarin modes)? And
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 7, 2006
        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@...> wrote:

        > Additionally, the 'classical' Quenya orthography uses letter úre for
        > 'v', not the letter ampa.

        Hm. Doesn't the "classical" Quenya mode employ vala or vilya (w > v)
        for "v" (i.e. the sound usually expressed by ampa in English or
        Sindarin modes)? And reserve úre for "u/w" diphthongs?

        Hisilome
      • j_mach_wust
        Hisilome wrote: ... .. Certainly! Thanks for the correction, I m very sorry I have confused the letter names. The question whether to use vala or vilya depends
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 8, 2006
          Hisilome wrote:
          ...
          > > Additionally, the 'classical' Quenya orthography uses letter úre
          > > for'v', not the letter ampa.
          >
          > Hm. Doesn't the "classical" Quenya mode employ vala or vilya (w > v)
          > for "v" (i.e. the sound usually expressed by ampa in English or
          > Sindarin modes)? And reserve úre for "u/w" diphthongs?
          ..

          Certainly! Thanks for the correction, I'm very sorry I have confused
          the letter names.

          The question whether to use vala or vilya depends on etymology.
          However, Tolkien may have used vala as default letter for any 'v' in
          the 'classical' Quenya orthography, just as he used silme for any 's',
          even though he claimed that the transcription of 's' also depended on
          etymology.


          Arantauri wrote:
          ...
          > Do u know which was the original mode that Féanor was said to have
          > devised?
          ...

          As far as I know, this is not known.


          ---------------------------
          j. 'mach' wust
          http://machhezan.tripod.com
          ---------------------------
        • Måns Björkman
          Hi, Sorry for chiming in late in the discussion. Since I know somewhat of the Valinorean , as the healers of Minas Tirith would say, I might comment on the
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 10, 2006
            Hi,

            Sorry for chiming in late in the discussion. Since I "know somewhat of
            the Valinorean", as the healers of Minas Tirith would say, I might
            comment on the Quenya translation. Essentially it is correct, but
            _tauri_ means "woods", in plural. The singular form "wood" is _taure_.

            As regards the transcription to Tengwar I can add little to what has
            already been said, except that in the classical mode _nt_ would
            perhaps in this case *not* be written with <anto> - since the _n_ and
            _t_ originally belong to different words: _aran-taure_.

            Yours,
            Måns
          • arantauri
            ... _taure_. ... Thanks very much guys for your insight... I m glad you Know somewhat of the valinorean more than me! I m glad you corrected me to arantaure,
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 11, 2006
              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Måns Björkman <mansb@...> wrote:
              >
              > _tauri_ means "woods", in plural. The singular form "wood" is
              _taure_.
              >>

              Thanks very much guys for your insight... I'm glad you 'Know somewhat
              of the valinorean' more than me!
              I'm glad you corrected me to arantaure, thankfully my transcription
              into tengwar can be easily ammended by changing the final vowel-mark-
              if i assume correctly?!
              May i also give special thanks to Mans Bjórkman for his
              webpage 'Amanye Tenceli' as it was and incredible help to me and my
              transcription.
              I think I'm going to go ahead with the ammended tattoo, and i will
              post a photo of the final result if you're interested!
              cheers arantaur'e'.
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