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Attempted tranlation of Kingswood

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  • arantauri
    Hi, I m new here, I m an avid Tolkien enthusiast but unfortunately only a novice linguist. I have been trying to tranlate a tattoo for some time and i have
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 6 5:50 AM
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      Hi, I'm new here, I'm an avid Tolkien enthusiast but unfortunately
      only a novice linguist. I have been trying to tranlate a tattoo for
      some time and i have been recommended to speak to elfscript as you are
      experts in the field of Tolkiens languages, i can see from some of the
      topics up for discussion that this is no lie. I no that you may be
      swamped with requests for advice but i would realy appreciate the help!

      You might have seen the new file I've added and this is the idea i
      have for my tattoo. The word i am trying to translate is 'Kingswood'.
      I translated it into Quenya as 'arantauri' (aran - king, tauri -
      greatwood / forest) as the translation of 'kingsland' is 'arandor'.
      And then tranlated the quenya into tengwar.

      The two small characters before are (hopefully) 'V' and 'E' for Veon
      and Eruwen.

      If anyone can ytake the time to have a quick look and let me know if
      I'm going along the right lines it would be much appreciated!
      Thanx, arantauri
    • Palatinus
      Which file? There are many there and none was uploaded recently check this out when in doubt http://tengwar.art.pl/tengwar/ott/english.php ...
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 6 8:35 AM
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        Which file? There are many there and none was uploaded
        recently

        check this out when in doubt
        http://tengwar.art.pl/tengwar/ott/english.php

        > Hi, I'm new here, I'm an avid Tolkien enthusiast
        > but unfortunately
        > only a novice linguist. I have been trying to
        > tranlate a tattoo for
        > some time and i have been recommended to speak to
        > elfscript as you are
        > experts in the field of Tolkiens languages, i can
        > see from some of the
        > topics up for discussion that this is no lie. I no
        > that you may be
        > swamped with requests for advice but i would realy
        > appreciate the help!
        >
        > You might have seen the new file I've added and
        > this is the idea i
        > have for my tattoo. The word i am trying to
        > translate is 'Kingswood'.
        > I translated it into Quenya as 'arantauri' (aran -
        > king, tauri -
        > greatwood / forest) as the translation of
        > 'kingsland' is 'arandor'.
        > And then tranlated the quenya into tengwar.
        >
        > The two small characters before are (hopefully)
        > 'V' and 'E' for Veon
        > and Eruwen.
        >
        > If anyone can ytake the time to have a quick look
        > and let me know if
        > I'm going along the right lines it would be much
        > appreciated!
        > Thanx, arantauri
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >







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      • j_mach_wust
        arantauri wrote: ... ... It s helpful to distinguish between translation (from one language to another) and transcription (from one writing system to
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 7 11:28 AM
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          arantauri wrote:
          ...
          > You might have seen the new file I've added and this is the idea i
          > have for my tattoo. The word i am trying to translate is 'Kingswood'.
          > I translated it into Quenya as 'arantauri' (aran - king, tauri -
          > greatwood / forest) as the translation of 'kingsland' is 'arandor'.
          > And then tranlated the quenya into tengwar.
          >
          > The two small characters before are (hopefully) 'V' and 'E' for
          > Veon and Eruwen.
          ...

          It's helpful to distinguish between 'translation' (from one language
          to another) and 'transcription' (from one writing system to another).
          Your first step was to translate from English to Quenya, your second
          step was to transcribe from the Latin alphabet to the tengwar script.
          I am not qualified to comment on your translation, since I don't know
          enough of Quenya. I can only comment on your transcription. If you
          search for more comments on your translation, then I'd recommend you
          to go to the group elfling:

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/

          Now to comment on your transcription (supposing that your translation
          'arantauri' is all right):

          That's well done! The only thing you need to correct is not to put the
          first a-sign on a long carrier, but on a short carrier. As it is now,
          it'd be read 'árantauri'. Then, you should abbreviate the 'n': Instead
          of writing it with its own letter (númen), you better express it by a
          bar put above the following t-letter (tinco). This is consistently
          found in Tolkien's own samples.

          You might choose to write the 'au' not by an a-sign first and then an
          u-sign on a short carrier, but with an a-sign above the letter úre
          (which looks like the Latin small letter 'o'). That's right, the
          a-sign wouldn't be on the preceding t-letter tinco, but on the
          following letter. That's because the letter úre is a special letter to
          invert the normal reading direction in order to more comfortably
          express sounds like 'au eu ou iu'. This is often found in Tolkien's
          samples, but not always, so your proposal is fine as well.

          You also might want to use the 'classical' Quenya orthography, not the
          'general use' orthography as in your proposal. In that case, you'd
          express the whole group of 'nt' by the single letter anto.
          Additionally, the 'classical' Quenya orthography uses letter úre for
          'v', not the letter ampa. Tolkien has used both the 'classical'
          orthography and the 'general use' for the transcription of Quenya. The
          'general use' may be more typical for humans, while the 'classical'
          orthography may be the original Elven usage (I think we don't know for
          sure).

          Well, this has become rather lengthy. It's not easy to properly
          explain the different options. Please ask if you have (not) understand
          anything at all...

          ---------------------------
          j. 'mach' wust
          http://machhezan.tripod.com
          ---------------------------
        • arantauri
          ... idea i ... is Kingswood . ... is arandor . ... language ... another). ... second ... script. ... know ... you ... translation ... the ... now, ...
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 7 12:27 PM
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            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > arantauri wrote:
            > ...
            > > You might have seen the new file I've added and this is the
            idea i
            > > have for my tattoo. The word i am trying to translate
            is 'Kingswood'.
            > > I translated it into Quenya as 'arantauri' (aran - king, tauri -
            > > greatwood / forest) as the translation of 'kingsland'
            is 'arandor'.
            > > And then tranlated the quenya into tengwar.
            > >
            > > The two small characters before are (hopefully) 'V' and 'E' for
            > > Veon and Eruwen.
            > ...
            >
            > It's helpful to distinguish between 'translation' (from one
            language
            > to another) and 'transcription' (from one writing system to
            another).
            > Your first step was to translate from English to Quenya, your
            second
            > step was to transcribe from the Latin alphabet to the tengwar
            script.
            > I am not qualified to comment on your translation, since I don't
            know
            > enough of Quenya. I can only comment on your transcription. If you
            > search for more comments on your translation, then I'd recommend
            you
            > to go to the group elfling:
            >
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/
            >
            > Now to comment on your transcription (supposing that your
            translation
            > 'arantauri' is all right):
            >
            > That's well done! The only thing you need to correct is not to put
            the
            > first a-sign on a long carrier, but on a short carrier. As it is
            now,
            > it'd be read 'árantauri'. Then, you should abbreviate the 'n':
            Instead
            > of writing it with its own letter (númen), you better express it
            by a
            > bar put above the following t-letter (tinco). This is consistently
            > found in Tolkien's own samples.
            >
            > You might choose to write the 'au' not by an a-sign first and then
            an
            > u-sign on a short carrier, but with an a-sign above the letter úre
            > (which looks like the Latin small letter 'o'). That's right, the
            > a-sign wouldn't be on the preceding t-letter tinco, but on the
            > following letter. That's because the letter úre is a special
            letter to
            > invert the normal reading direction in order to more comfortably
            > express sounds like 'au eu ou iu'. This is often found in Tolkien's
            > samples, but not always, so your proposal is fine as well.
            >
            > You also might want to use the 'classical' Quenya orthography, not
            the
            > 'general use' orthography as in your proposal. In that case, you'd
            > express the whole group of 'nt' by the single letter anto.
            > Additionally, the 'classical' Quenya orthography uses letter úre
            for
            > 'v', not the letter ampa. Tolkien has used both the 'classical'
            > orthography and the 'general use' for the transcription of Quenya.
            The
            > 'general use' may be more typical for humans, while the 'classical'
            > orthography may be the original Elven usage (I think we don't know
            for
            > sure).
            >
            > Well, this has become rather lengthy. It's not easy to properly
            > explain the different options. Please ask if you have (not)
            understand
            > anything at all...
            >
            > ---------------------------
            > j. 'mach' wust
            > http://machhezan.tripod.com
            > ---------------------------
            >
            Thank you very much for your comments, all of which are very
            helpfull and I'm happy to say that i understand them (after a little
            thought). I did mention i am a novice linguist but i should not have
            made simple mistakes like 'translation' and 'transcription'!!

            I had susspected that i should have used a short carrier for the
            first 'A', thanks for putting me straight. The reason i did that was
            i suspected it might have also changed the sound of the 'A' for our
            english version of a capital, silly mistake no. 2!

            As for not using the clasical version of the tengwar i was trying
            to keep things simple for me but i was tempted by the letter 'anto'.
            Do u know which was the original mode that Féonor was said to have
            devised?

            Thanks again for your help with the transciption, all i need is to
            check the translation into Quenya (which i hope is more accurate)and
            i can go ahead. I have been designing this for a long time and i
            dont't want to get some random gibberish on my arm!

            ta,Arantauri
          • hisilome
            ... Hm. Doesn t the classical Quenya mode employ vala or vilya (w v) for v (i.e. the sound usually expressed by ampa in English or Sindarin modes)? And
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 7 11:27 PM
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              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@...> wrote:

              > Additionally, the 'classical' Quenya orthography uses letter úre for
              > 'v', not the letter ampa.

              Hm. Doesn't the "classical" Quenya mode employ vala or vilya (w > v)
              for "v" (i.e. the sound usually expressed by ampa in English or
              Sindarin modes)? And reserve úre for "u/w" diphthongs?

              Hisilome
            • j_mach_wust
              Hisilome wrote: ... .. Certainly! Thanks for the correction, I m very sorry I have confused the letter names. The question whether to use vala or vilya depends
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 8 5:18 AM
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                Hisilome wrote:
                ...
                > > Additionally, the 'classical' Quenya orthography uses letter úre
                > > for'v', not the letter ampa.
                >
                > Hm. Doesn't the "classical" Quenya mode employ vala or vilya (w > v)
                > for "v" (i.e. the sound usually expressed by ampa in English or
                > Sindarin modes)? And reserve úre for "u/w" diphthongs?
                ..

                Certainly! Thanks for the correction, I'm very sorry I have confused
                the letter names.

                The question whether to use vala or vilya depends on etymology.
                However, Tolkien may have used vala as default letter for any 'v' in
                the 'classical' Quenya orthography, just as he used silme for any 's',
                even though he claimed that the transcription of 's' also depended on
                etymology.


                Arantauri wrote:
                ...
                > Do u know which was the original mode that Féanor was said to have
                > devised?
                ...

                As far as I know, this is not known.


                ---------------------------
                j. 'mach' wust
                http://machhezan.tripod.com
                ---------------------------
              • Måns Björkman
                Hi, Sorry for chiming in late in the discussion. Since I know somewhat of the Valinorean , as the healers of Minas Tirith would say, I might comment on the
                Message 7 of 8 , Jul 10 11:21 AM
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                  Hi,

                  Sorry for chiming in late in the discussion. Since I "know somewhat of
                  the Valinorean", as the healers of Minas Tirith would say, I might
                  comment on the Quenya translation. Essentially it is correct, but
                  _tauri_ means "woods", in plural. The singular form "wood" is _taure_.

                  As regards the transcription to Tengwar I can add little to what has
                  already been said, except that in the classical mode _nt_ would
                  perhaps in this case *not* be written with <anto> - since the _n_ and
                  _t_ originally belong to different words: _aran-taure_.

                  Yours,
                  Måns
                • arantauri
                  ... _taure_. ... Thanks very much guys for your insight... I m glad you Know somewhat of the valinorean more than me! I m glad you corrected me to arantaure,
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jul 11 8:00 AM
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                    --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Måns Björkman <mansb@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > _tauri_ means "woods", in plural. The singular form "wood" is
                    _taure_.
                    >>

                    Thanks very much guys for your insight... I'm glad you 'Know somewhat
                    of the valinorean' more than me!
                    I'm glad you corrected me to arantaure, thankfully my transcription
                    into tengwar can be easily ammended by changing the final vowel-mark-
                    if i assume correctly?!
                    May i also give special thanks to Mans Bjórkman for his
                    webpage 'Amanye Tenceli' as it was and incredible help to me and my
                    transcription.
                    I think I'm going to go ahead with the ammended tattoo, and i will
                    post a photo of the final result if you're interested!
                    cheers arantaur'e'.
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