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Re: [elfscript] Tengwar BCS and Tengwar art

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  • Aida Djikic
    Melroch Aestan wrote: Since this post of necessity contains quite a few tengwar I have uploaded a PDF version to the Melroch
    Message 1 of 5 , May 3, 2006
      Melroch 'Aestan <melroch@...> wrote: Since this post of necessity contains quite
      a few tengwar I have uploaded a PDF version
      to the "Melroch" folder in the files section
      (Quick link: <http://tinyurl.com/mc6mc>).

      Aida Djikic skrev:
      > Hello there,
      > I just wanted to let you know that I uploaded my paper on writing BCS
      > with Tengwar to "Aida" folder. I also wrote my name in Tengwar BCS
      > mode and decorated it with flower shapes, it's amazing what you can do
      > with this beautiful script if you have the time and will to do it! I
      > hope you will like it.
      > Aida

      An excellent presentation! I do have some comments
      and suggestions however. I'm afraid the nitpicking and
      criticism comes mostly at the beginning:

      Front page (page 1):
      _tengwar_ is pronounced [teŋgwar] with a sounded [g], so
      in General Use it is spelled |1x{|è|R6E |with ungwe+nasal bar +
      w-curl+e-tehta… This concerns mainly the English version,
      but I suggest you use |x{ |(Ungwe+nasal bar) for BCS _ng _
      since it is sounded [ŋg], and it also seems reasonable to use
      the w-curl as an alternative for both [w] and /v/ after a
      consonant, since there is no /w/ phoneme in BCS.

      That might be a good idea for those who like to use shorthand; I'm a big fan and use it extensively in my writing. Others can use a more straightforward approach.

      _guide _should be spelled |x2%È |or possibly| xè2%È |(Ungwe+optional
      w-curl+Ando+e-tehta+underdot) in an orthographic English mode.
      The_ ui_ is not a diphthong spelling here: it is_ i-e_ which is the
      diphthong spelling, while the _u _is the French-derived device
      for marking the _g_ as hard before the _i_! Not at all logical, but
      English spelling isn't in the least logical…

      Yes, unfortunatelly. thanks for the clarification.

      Page 3: Måns Björkman spells his first name with an _å_ (alt+0229
      on the Windows keyboard). It is a different sound from _a_ in Swedish.

      Page 4: the _ʒ́_ (Ezh with acute) character chose a font with many
      Unicode characters like Arial Unicode MS and type (alt+0658,alt+0769).
      If you want the _ǯ_ (Ezh with wedge) character as well it even has
      its own precomposed character (alt+0495)! BTW I recommend the
      Gentium font which you can find at <http://tinyurl.com/a44y7>

      I tried it out and i get the acute a little right of the character but it's acceptable in a crunch. I will also download the font.

      Page 6: there is a typo in the sentence " Tengwar tehta mode
      provides two ways of marking long vovels:" (vovels > vowels).
      (I do this error myself: I recently wrote "wiolate" on a wiki
      page and someone had to go in and correct it!)

      Oh, God, and we read it thoroughly and ran it through spell-check, can't believe we missed it! Still, we were in a rush and I'm glad that there weren't any more mistakes.

      "I have no solution for the short and long
      "falling and rising tones.

      What about using doubled tehtar for rising tone and
      single underdot for falling tone? There are three disad-
      vantages with this scheme however: (1) the underdot
      doesn't fit very well under the long carrier you would then
      have to use for long vowels, (2) you would have to use the
      subscript reversed a-tehta for the combination of single
      and double underdot, and (3) the doubled a-tehta looks
      downright ugly!

      I would be reluctant to do anything about it since I know little about it, I would leave it to someone with more experience.

      Page 8: _lj_: as a general principle in Slavic languages it may
      be a good idea to use Lambe |j |for the palatalized _lj/ ľ _but
      Alda |m |for the non-palatalized _l_, since in Polish (and IIRC
      Sorbian) *_ľ _has developed into a clear _l_ while the old _*l_ has
      developed into _ł _which is pronounced [w]: the |j´ |vs.| j
      |spelling just doesn't make sense in Polish, while it seems
      desirable to spell the historically corresponding sounds
      the same way in all the Slavic languages. Also it makes
      sense to give _lj/ ľ_ its own basic tengwa parallel to _nj/ň_
      Anga |g|.

      I was actually once thinking about using Alda for either syllabic l or for lj because of a "tail" it has; I thought it would be perfect for it but refrained from entering it into the paper. Maybe I should have.

      Page 9: There is one big disadvantage with using Halla
      for /h/ in languages where that sound can occur at the
      end of words: it is all too easily confused with the Quenya
      exclamation mark — not a problem in Quenya, Sindarin or
      English which have no final _h's_, but one should be aware
      of the problem.

      Hala is just there as an option for the pharingeal h, in case someone decides to use it instead of Hyarmen for whatever reason. They could for example use Hyarmen in final position and Halla in all other cases.

      Page 10:
      " For the front palatal affricates [ć] and
      "[đ] I use Calma, Anga and Lambe with two
      "underdots following the statement in the
      "Appendix E that Quenya had a separate
      "Tyelpetema series for the palatals which
      "were marked with Tincotema + «following –
      "y» tehta. I placed it under the tengwar in
      "question to avoid stacking tehtar on a
      "tengwa, e.g. in the word «lađar» - |js#Ì6E|.
      "Alternatively, they could be marked with
      "Calma and Anga with a raised telco – |jS#6E|."

      As for using extended telcor to distinguish _ć/č _and_ dž/đ
      _I think it is better to assign them the other way around,
      i.e. extended telcor for _č _and_ dž_ and basic Calma/Anga for
      _ć/đ_, since it is the latter that correspond to stop sounds
      _ť/ď_ in Czech and Slovak. This convention can also be used
      to the dentals, with extended stems for _c/dz_, leaving basic
      Thúle and Anto available for expressing _th_ and _dh _in Sindarin
      words. It also agrees with the convention adopted for German
      which needs to distinguish _pf_ |Q| from _f_ |e| — in Swiss German
      even _kch_ |Z| from _ch_ |c|! (1) This would free the double dot from
      marking palatalization, so that it can be used to write any
      _j_ following a consonant.

      If I were to do it the other way around, it would definitelly ruin my initials ;-D but I am really tempted to use the extended telcor to avoid the underdots. Also for c/dz my previous suggestion contained it so that I can use Thúle and Anto for English.

      "In the orthographic mode, the R-rule is
      "followed – Órë if it is preceded by a vowel and
      "at the end of the word, and Rómen if it is
      "followed by a vowel. bor – w6Y, ruka – 7zU`C.
      "In the Phonetic mode, only Rómen is used.

      I think this is good and well for consonantal _r_, but
      for vocalic _r_ Óre should be used always, since the
      origin of the R-rule probably is that in English _r_
      after a vowel is vocalized: _nurse _is [nrs] in American
      and was so inolder British English, and [nə:s] in
      contemporary British English, while _better_ is
      [betr] and [betə] respectively. Tolkien always
      used Óre, never Rómen, for vocalized _r_ in English.
      For this reason _Srpski_ with Rómen looks really odd.

      The R-rule was always confusing for me since our r is trilled; I remember reading that Rómen is used for such an r. For vocalic r i suggested Arda. Also, one note: vocalic r & syllabic l are marked with a little circle in the Croatian grammar; those marks were missing from my comp and I forget to state that fact. I would for example write words like vrt, smrt, hrt etc with Arda, but your suggestion seems worth considering.

      Thank you again for your suggestions, they were very helpful!

      /Melroch Aestan

      (1) Something similar is necessary for Basque which
      distinguishes simple fricatives from affricates at
      three points of articulation, and in addition stops
      from both fricative and affricate in two positions,
      so that one would have to use e.g. _t_ |1| _tz_ |!|
      _z_ |3| _s_ |8| _ts_ |k| _tt_ |a| _tx_ |A| _x_ |d|.

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