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The R-rule

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  • Aida Djikic
    Hello everyone, I need some help in clarifying the R-rule. I came acrross two different definitions - one that says that Ore is used when it is preceded by a
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 24 6:25 AM
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      Hello everyone,

      I need some help in clarifying the R-rule. I came acrross two
      different definitions - one that says that Ore is used when it is
      preceded by a vowel as in w6H, and at the end of a word (same word);
      while romen is used when it is followed by a vowel as in 7zH. The
      other one says that Romen is used intervocally and Ore in all other
      positions. Which one is it? I need this for a revision of a paper I
      did on writing Bosnian with Tengwar. I used Dan Smith's Tengwar
      Sindarin.

      Best regards, Aida
    • Melroch 'Aestan
      ... My understanding is _r_ is Rómen when it precedes a vowel and Óre otherwise -- essentially your first alternative. The point of my formulation is that
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 24 6:59 AM
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        Aida Djikic skrev:
        > Hello everyone,
        >
        > I need some help in clarifying the R-rule. I came acrross two
        > different definitions - one that says that Ore is used when it is
        > preceded by a vowel as in w6H, and at the end of a word (same word);
        > while romen is used when it is followed by a vowel as in 7zH. The
        > other one says that Romen is used intervocally and Ore in all other
        > positions. Which one is it? I need this for a revision of a paper I
        > did on writing Bosnian with Tengwar. I used Dan Smith's Tengwar
        > Sindarin.
        >
        > Best regards, Aida
        >

        My understanding is _r_ is Rómen when it precedes a vowel
        and Óre otherwise -- essentially your first alternative.
        The point of my formulation is that Tolkien at least sometimes
        wrote Rómen for word-final _r_ when the next word began in
        a vowel, and this formulation covers that case.

        BTW this is the definition I have been using in TengScribe
        mode files I'm working on. Apart from the oprtion of using
        Rómen for word-final _r_ when the next word begins in a vowel
        it is reasonably easy to formulate in a TengScribe mode file.

        NB that _ry_ /rj/ is a border case: apparently it can be
        written as *either* _r_-tengwa with two dots below.
        In most fonts two dots below Rómen get entangled in the
        tail of the tengwa, so there I prefer Óre, but in handwriting
        I prefer Rómen.

        --

        /BP 8^)>
        --
        Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
        A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
        __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
        \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
        / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
        / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
        /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
        Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
        ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
        || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
      • Aida Djikic
        Thank you very much, Melroch! I am almost done with my paper and I will post in my folder as soon as possible. It is bi-lingual and in two columns (BCS on
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 24 8:13 AM
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          Thank you very much, Melroch! I am almost done with my paper and I will post in my folder as soon as possible. It is bi-lingual and in two columns (BCS on the left, English on the right) and I would appreciate any input on anyone who's interested in taking a look.

          Aida

          Melroch 'Aestan <melroch@...> wrote:
          Aida Djikic skrev:
          > Hello everyone,
          >
          > I need some help in clarifying the R-rule. I came acrross two
          > different definitions - one that says that Ore is used when it is
          > preceded by a vowel as in w6H, and at the end of a word (same word);
          > while romen is used when it is followed by a vowel as in 7zH. The
          > other one says that Romen is used intervocally and Ore in all other
          > positions. Which one is it? I need this for a revision of a paper I
          > did on writing Bosnian with Tengwar. I used Dan Smith's Tengwar
          > Sindarin.
          >
          > Best regards, Aida
          >

          My understanding is _r_ is Rómen when it precedes a vowel
          and Óre otherwise -- essentially your first alternative.
          The point of my formulation is that Tolkien at least sometimes
          wrote Rómen for word-final _r_ when the next word began in
          a vowel, and this formulation covers that case.

          BTW this is the definition I have been using in TengScribe
          mode files I'm working on. Apart from the oprtion of using
          Rómen for word-final _r_ when the next word begins in a vowel
          it is reasonably easy to formulate in a TengScribe mode file.

          NB that _ry_ /rj/ is a border case: apparently it can be
          written as *either* _r_-tengwa with two dots below.
          In most fonts two dots below Rómen get entangled in the
          tail of the tengwa, so there I prefer Óre, but in handwriting
          I prefer Rómen.

          --

          /BP 8^)>
          --
          Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
          A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
          __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
          \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
          / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
          / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
          /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
          Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
          ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
          || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||



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        • Melroch 'Aestan
          It just hit me that _rw_ probably can be written in two ways analoguous to _ry_, but I can t remember any examples. Anone who can? ... -- /BP 8^) -- Benct
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 24 11:30 AM
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            It just hit me that _rw_ probably can be written in
            two ways analoguous to _ry_, but I can't remember
            any examples. Anone who can?

            Aida Djikic skrev:
            > Thank you very much, Melroch! I am almost done with my paper and I will post in my folder as soon as possible. It is bi-lingual and in two columns (BCS on the left, English on the right) and I would appreciate any input on anyone who's interested in taking a look.
            >
            > Aida
            >
            > Melroch 'Aestan <melroch@...> wrote:
            > Aida Djikic skrev:
            >
            >>Hello everyone,
            >>
            >>I need some help in clarifying the R-rule. I came acrross two
            >>different definitions - one that says that Ore is used when it is
            >>preceded by a vowel as in w6H, and at the end of a word (same word);
            >>while romen is used when it is followed by a vowel as in 7zH. The
            >>other one says that Romen is used intervocally and Ore in all other
            >>positions. Which one is it? I need this for a revision of a paper I
            >>did on writing Bosnian with Tengwar. I used Dan Smith's Tengwar
            >>Sindarin.
            >>
            >>Best regards, Aida
            >>
            >
            >
            > My understanding is _r_ is Rómen when it precedes a vowel
            > and Óre otherwise -- essentially your first alternative.
            > The point of my formulation is that Tolkien at least sometimes
            > wrote Rómen for word-final _r_ when the next word began in
            > a vowel, and this formulation covers that case.
            >
            > BTW this is the definition I have been using in TengScribe
            > mode files I'm working on. Apart from the oprtion of using
            > Rómen for word-final _r_ when the next word begins in a vowel
            > it is reasonably easy to formulate in a TengScribe mode file.
            >
            > NB that _ry_ /rj/ is a border case: apparently it can be
            > written as *either* _r_-tengwa with two dots below.
            > In most fonts two dots below Rómen get entangled in the
            > tail of the tengwa, so there I prefer Óre, but in handwriting
            > I prefer Rómen.
            >


            --

            /BP 8^)>
            --
            Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
            A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
            __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
            \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
            / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
            / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
            /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
            Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
            ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
            || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
          • Melroch 'Aestan
            ... ^^^^^ Anyone of course! -- /BP 8^) -- Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__ A
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 24 1:01 PM
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              I wrote:
              > It just hit me that _rw_ probably can be written in
              > two ways analoguous to _ry_, but I can't remember
              > any examples. Anone who can?
              ^^^^^
              "Anyone" of course!


              --

              /BP 8^)>
              --
              Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
              A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
              __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
              \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
              / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
              / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
              /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
              Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
              ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
              || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
            • j_mach_wust
              ... I think it s not attested, and neither is _wr_ as in traditional English spelling write (I d say it d make much sense to expect this to be written with a
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 25 7:31 AM
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                --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Melroch 'Aestan <melroch@...> wrote:
                >
                > It just hit me that _rw_ probably can be written in
                > two ways analoguous to _ry_, but I can't remember
                > any examples. Anone who can?

                I think it's not attested, and neither is _wr_ as in traditional
                English spelling "write" (I'd say it'd make much sense to expect this
                to be written with a following-w-tehta on the r-letter).

                However, a use of óre couldn't be explained by lack of space for the
                tehta, since the 'following -w tehta' is always put above, even if
                there are already other tehtar, as in DTS 46 _enkwatuva_, where the
                letter quesse bears three tehtar: a prenasalisation bar, a
                following-w-tehta and an a-tehta.

                ---------------------------
                j. 'mach' wust
                http://machhezan.tripod.com
                ---------------------------
              • Helge K. Fauskanger
                ... In the RGEO transcript of Namárie we have Óre also where the next word begins in a vowel (yuldaR avánier, tintilaR i eleni, tieR unduláve, falmalinnaR
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 26 9:46 AM
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                  Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:

                  > My understanding is _r_ is Rómen when it precedes a vowel
                  > and Óre otherwise [...]
                  > The point of my formulation is that Tolkien at least sometimes
                  > wrote Rómen for word-final _r_ when the next word began in
                  > a vowel, and this formulation covers that case.
                  >
                  > BTW this is the definition I have been using in TengScribe
                  > mode files I'm working on.

                  In the RGEO transcript of Namárie we have Óre also where the next word
                  begins in a vowel (yuldaR avánier, tintilaR i eleni, tieR unduláve,
                  falmalinnaR imbe). In Quenya, at least, the rule "Rómen before vowels,
                  otherwise Óre" only seems to apply within a single word, irrespective of
                  the initial sound of the next word.

                  - HKF
                • Melroch 'Aestan
                  ... Why? It derives from Old English _wrítan_, and has never been pronounced [ rwi:tan]/[rw@it]/[rwaIt]. Had it gone through such a stage it would probably
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 29 10:02 AM
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                    j_mach_wust skrev:
                    > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Melroch 'Aestan <melroch@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >>It just hit me that _rw_ probably can be written in
                    >>two ways analoguous to _ry_, but I can't remember
                    >>any examples. Anone who can?
                    >
                    >
                    > I think it's not attested, and neither is _wr_ as in traditional
                    > English spelling "write" (I'd say it'd make much sense to expect this
                    > to be written with a following-w-tehta on the r-letter).

                    Why? It derives from Old English _wrítan_, and has
                    never been pronounced ['rwi:tan]/[rw@it]/[rwaIt].
                    Had it gone through such a stage it would probably
                    have been _roit_ now.

                    > However, a use of óre couldn't be explained by lack of space for the
                    > tehta, since the 'following -w tehta' is always put above, even if
                    > there are already other tehtar, as in DTS 46 _enkwatuva_, where the
                    > letter quesse bears three tehtar: a prenasalisation bar, a
                    > following-w-tehta and an a-tehta.

                    I know. What is convenient for us when writing with
                    computer fonts of course didn't matter for Tolkien
                    who wrote all his tengwar by hand! I just wondered
                    which happened to be his practice, or preferred practice.

                    --

                    /BP 8^)>
                    --
                    Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                    A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
                    __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
                    \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
                    / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
                    / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
                    /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
                    Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
                    ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
                    || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
                  • j_mach_wust
                    ... I presumed it was simultaneous [r] and labialization, though I didn t really know about it. ... j. mach wust http://machhezan.tripod.com
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 29 1:05 PM
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                      Melroch 'Aestan wrote:
                      > > I think it's not attested, and neither is _wr_ as in traditional
                      > > English spelling "write" (I'd say it'd make much sense to expect
                      > > this to be written with a following-w-tehta on the r-letter).
                      >
                      > Why? It derives from Old English _wrítan_, and has
                      > never been pronounced ['rwi:tan]/[rw@it]/[rwaIt].
                      > Had it gone through such a stage it would probably
                      > have been _roit_ now.

                      I presumed it was simultaneous [r] and labialization, though I didn't
                      really know about it.

                      ---------------------------
                      j. 'mach' wust
                      http://machhezan.tripod.com
                      ---------------------------
                    • Melroch 'Aestan
                      ... Maybe it was at some point just before it disappeared, but *originally* it certainly was a sequence of two phonemes, and very significantly Old and Middle
                      Message 10 of 11 , Apr 29 1:18 PM
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                        j_mach_wust skrev:
                        > Melroch 'Aestan wrote:
                        >
                        >>>I think it's not attested, and neither is _wr_ as in traditional
                        >>>English spelling "write" (I'd say it'd make much sense to expect
                        >>>this to be written with a following-w-tehta on the r-letter).
                        >>
                        >>Why? It derives from Old English _wrítan_, and has
                        >>never been pronounced ['rwi:tan]/[rw@it]/[rwaIt].
                        >>Had it gone through such a stage it would probably
                        >>have been _roit_ now.
                        >
                        >
                        > I presumed it was simultaneous [r] and labialization, though I didn't
                        > really know about it.

                        Maybe it was at some point just before it disappeared,
                        but *originally* it certainly was a sequence of two
                        phonemes, and very significantly Old and Middle
                        English scribes never inverted the order of the
                        letters, as they did for _hw_ > _wh_ which had
                        become voiceless /W/.

                        --

                        /BP 8^)>
                        --
                        Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                        A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
                        __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
                        \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
                        / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
                        / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
                        /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
                        Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
                        ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
                        || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
                      • Melroch 'Aestan
                        ... The _wr-_ combo is a bit strange already in Proto-Indo-European, among other things because there is no corresponding _yr-_! The _wr_ probably arose
                        Message 11 of 11 , Apr 30 6:10 AM
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                          Melroch 'Aestan skrev:

                          >>I presumed it was simultaneous [r] and labialization, though I didn't
                          >>really know about it.
                          >
                          >
                          > Maybe it was at some point just before it disappeared,
                          > but *originally* it certainly was a sequence of two
                          > phonemes, and very significantly Old and Middle
                          > English scribes never inverted the order of the
                          > letters, as they did for _hw_ > _wh_ which had
                          > become voiceless /W/.
                          >

                          The _wr-_ combo is a bit strange already in
                          Proto-Indo-European, among other things because
                          there is no corresponding _yr-_! The _wr_
                          probably arose because of a (late?) near
                          merger between *b and *w, since *b is quite
                          rare.

                          --

                          /BP 8^)>
                          --
                          Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                          A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
                          __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
                          \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
                          / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
                          / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
                          /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
                          Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
                          ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
                          || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
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