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Re: Last Name Translation Help?

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  • j_mach_wust
    ... wrote: ... It s a letter with an extended stem. About these letters, Tolkien wrote in Appendix E to the Lord of the Rings:
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 6, 2006
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      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "krisp_of_manetheren"
      <krisp_of_manetheren@...> wrote:
      ...
      > i do have a question for j_mach_wust... looking at your
      > transcription, i'm unsure what the middle character is. i followed
      > most of what you wrote, but that's one i haven't come across (that i
      > can recall).


      It's a letter with an "extended" stem. About these letters, Tolkien
      wrote in Appendix E to the Lord of the Rings: "These usually
      represented aspirated consonants (e.g. t+h, p+h, k+h), but might
      represent other consonantal variations required." German does not
      distinguish aspirated consonants, but it distinguishes affricate
      consonants (e.g. t+s/z, p+f, t+sh, k+ch), so based on that quote we
      may consider that the German affricate consonants are exactly these
      "other consonantal variations required" Tolkien mentioned.

      I wrote a bar above to express the preceding n, and the two dots for ü
      (if ü -- u-umlaut -- is really the letter in your name, you have
      written ú -- u-acute).

      ---------------------------
      j. 'mach' wust
      http://machhezan.tripod.com
      ---------------------------
    • krisp_of_manetheren
      awesome. that makes sense. :) i was just curious how you had gotten to that point.
      Message 2 of 25 , Apr 6, 2006
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        awesome. that makes sense. :)

        i was just curious how you had gotten to that point.

        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "krisp_of_manetheren"
        > <krisp_of_manetheren@> wrote:
        > ...
        > > i do have a question for j_mach_wust... looking at your
        > > transcription, i'm unsure what the middle character is. i followed
        > > most of what you wrote, but that's one i haven't come across (that i
        > > can recall).
        >
        >
        > It's a letter with an "extended" stem. About these letters, Tolkien
        > wrote in Appendix E to the Lord of the Rings: "These usually
        > represented aspirated consonants (e.g. t+h, p+h, k+h), but might
        > represent other consonantal variations required." German does not
        > distinguish aspirated consonants, but it distinguishes affricate
        > consonants (e.g. t+s/z, p+f, t+sh, k+ch), so based on that quote we
        > may consider that the German affricate consonants are exactly these
        > "other consonantal variations required" Tolkien mentioned.
        >
        > I wrote a bar above to express the preceding n, and the two dots for ü
        > (if ü -- u-umlaut -- is really the letter in your name, you have
        > written ú -- u-acute).
        >
        > ---------------------------
        > j. 'mach' wust
        > http://machhezan.tripod.com
        > ---------------------------
        >
      • Melroch 'Aestan
        ... Sure, but using combinations with Yanta makes the writing more like Sindarin, and for that reason I sometimes use that solution for Swedish as well: _y,
        Message 3 of 25 , Apr 7, 2006
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          j_mach_wust skrev:
          > Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
          > ...
          >
          >>_ü_,
          >>which is spelled _ue_ when the composite letter is not
          >>available (as in www.kuenzel.de for the firm Künzel
          >>which manufactures heaters; I could need one today as
          >>it snows outside and the window needs new stripping! :)
          >>German _ü/ue_ of course corresponds to Sindarin _y_,
          >>but I would perhaps rather spell it as Yanta + u-tehta
          >>for better analogy with _ä/ae_ and _ö/oe_.
          >
          >
          > Ah, German modes, my favourite!
          >
          > Why is that? We have tehtar for ae and ue, and a tehta for oe can
          > easily be deduced by analogy to the ue tehta: If the ue tehta (two
          > dots) is a modification of the i tehta (one dot), then the oe tehta
          > has to be a modification of the e tehta (acute accent).

          Sure, but using combinations with Yanta makes the writing more
          like Sindarin, and for that reason I sometimes use that solution
          for Swedish as well: _y, ä, ö_ become Yanta with U. A, O tehtar,
          _å_ becomes Úre with A-tehta, while _aj, ej, oj, uj_ become
          Anna with the respective tehtar, and _au/ao, eu_ become Vala
          with A, E tehtar. The only real problem with this scheme is
          when _j_ follows _y, å, ä, ö_: I have to put a double dot
          under the digraph for these sounds. This scheme has the
          advantage that you don't have to find a tehta for _å_,
          which is a bit pesky. Per Lindberg proposes a doubled
          A-tehta, on the analogy that the _å_ sound originates in
          a rounded (back) _a_, but that tehta is unwieldy to write
          and downright ugly. I prefer the mirrored U-tehta,
          (á in the Tengwar Annatar Alt font) but am not wholly
          happy with that either...

          > Two
          > modifications of the e tehta are at hand: Either a doubled e tehta
          > (two acute accents) or a reversed e tehta (grave accent). The former
          > solution (two acute accents) is the one proposed by Per Lindberg in
          > his Swedish mode and by Florian Dombach in his German mode, though I
          > tend to prefer the latter solution (grave accent) since it allows for
          > more complex vowel systems to be represented (French or Alemannic
          > dialects).

          (For phone*ic symbols see <http://www.theiling.de/ipa/>!)
          Wait a minute! If by "more complex vowel systems" you mean ones
          that distinguish /9/ from /2/ (/œ/ from /ø/), /O/ from /o/ and
          perhaps /E/, /e/, /a/, /A/ all from one another, right?

          Wouldn't it then make most sense to use the following?

          e = / 2 = // o = O-tehta

          E = \ 9 = \\ O = mirrored U-tehta

          a = upside-down A-tehta A = A-tehta

          (or perhaps the opposite for /o/ and /O/...)

          If you have a system that in addition distinguishes
          /I/ from /i/ and /Y/ from /y/ as I believe I've
          read that some Alemannic dialects do, you of course
          get into a whole new set of problems that I don't
          know how to solve however...

          > I don't like the solution with yanta. It is only attested for
          > diphthongs, but German ae oe ue are not diphthongs nor have they
          > developed from original diphthongs. Choosing yanta transcriptions for
          > ae oe ue means rejecting two attested spellings (for ae and ue) and
          > using unattested spellings instead. Choosing the double acute accent
          > or the grave accent for oe means having only one unattested spelling
          > instead of three.

          See above. FWIW the German _ae, oe, ue_ spellings are every
          bit as illogical, given the argument that these sounds were
          never diphthongs, not to speak of the entire Dutch -- or
          English -- system of spelling vowels! In terms of *spellings*
          German _ae, oe_ are analogous to Sindarin _ae, oe_ (especially
          given that many instances of _oe_ in Sindarin represent /2/ as
          the i-umlaut of *o, which later became /e/, and that even
          Sindarin _ae_ became /E/ in some pronunciations e.g.
          Aegamloth which became Egalmoth (sic!) in the pronunciation
          of Gondor. So either way you have two attested spellings and
          one unattested.

          >>Then there is the question of _z_ which is [ts] in
          >>German. German also has two different s-sounds
          >>spelled _s_ and _ß_, so both Silme and Esse are
          >>needed for them. The most logical tengwa for
          >>German _z_ would be Thúle,
          >
          >
          > I disagree. This would make the súletyelle an affricate tyelle.

          I know. I was building up an argument here!
          BTW you run into the same problem _a forteriori_
          with Slavic languages which have all of
          /s z ts dz S Z tS dZ x/ and for some /G/,
          and then you want still to distinguish
          Sindarin /T/ and /D/.

          >>but as one may want to
          >>distinguish German _z_ from Sindarin or English
          >>_th_ even when writing German the best choice is
          >>probably Thúle with extended stem, especially as
          >>one needs to distinguish the analogous _pf/f_
          >>within German itself.
          >
          >
          > Exactly! And then, German has also (some instances of) tsch, and there
          > are dialects that have kch (spelled however simply k in the Latin
          > alphabet), so the row of affricates is complete.
          >
          >
          >>Perhaps one could also spell Künzel as if it were
          >>Quenya _Cuintsel_ or _Ceuntsel_.
          >
          >
          > It's not a good idea to use the calmatéma for the k-sounds, since
          > German has ch-sounds.

          I hope you mean /tS/ sounds and not /x/ sounds! :-)

          > So I think German modes are best based on the
          > general use, especially considering that German and English are
          > closely related languages and the general use was the preferred way of
          > transcribing English (among the tehtar modes).

          I agree on both points, but for a one-off transcription of
          a name I think aesthetical considerations may take the upper
          hand. I would e.g. not use Quessetéma for velars in a
          non-Quenya name in the middle of a Quenya sentence, but dumb
          down the name to Quenya phonemes, and then spell it accordingly,
          since I think that is what the Elves would have done.

          > So here's how I'd transcribe the name in my usual German modes:
          >
          > http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/j_mach_wust/kuenzel.png

          I agree that the _e_ needn't be written in
          _-el, -en, -em, -er_ endings. Yiddish spelling
          curiously uses _-l, -n_ but _-er_!


          --

          /BP 8^)>
          --
          Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
          A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
          __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
          \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
          / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
          / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
          /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
          Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
          ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
          || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
        • hisilome
          ... wrote: We have tehtar for ae and ue Well, we have the double over-dot for _ue/ü_ (as attested in the third copy of KL _mhellyn_), and I like
          Message 4 of 25 , Apr 7, 2006
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            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@...>
            wrote:

            <...> We have tehtar for ae and ue <...>


            Well, we have the double over-dot for _ue/ü_ (as attested in the
            third copy of KL _mhellyn_), and I like the idea of using a reversed
            E-tehta (accent grave), or two E-tehtar, for _oe/ö_.

            Just one question: what exactly are you referring to when you say
            that we also have a tehta for _ae/ä_? Maybe the spellings for Old
            English _æ_ we see in the Lowdham Manuscripts (although I'm not
            certain if this sound can be said to be quite identical to German
            _ä_, but it should be close enough)?
            If so, wouldn't we run into trouble when using those signs (I believe
            in DTS 50/51 Tolkien alternates between using three or two over-dots
            for _æ_ [and two dots plus a subscript that Tolkien calls "the tail
            of the long carrier" for long _æ_ as in _sæ'_]) in a mode, such as
            for German, where we also need tehtar for _a_ (usually three over-
            dots) and _ü_ (two over-dots)?

            Or maybe there are other instances of _umlaut a_ (ae/ä) in Tolkien's
            tengwar writings that you were thinking of?
            Hm, would the inverted A-tehta in DTS 41 (_clAEdioul&s_) qualify?
            Then we could use that for _ä_ (alongside the "normal" A-tehta for
            _a_ and the double over-dot for _ü_) in a German mode...?

            The thing is, I'm not really sure how Latin _ae_ was pronounced
            (or how Tolkien pronounced it, for that matter ;))--like Quenya _ai_
            (or the sound in English _AIsle_), i.e. as a diphthong, not an
            umlaut, or rather more like something between the _a_ in English
            _angry_ and the _e_ in English _empty_ (which would pretty much
            correspond to German _ä_, wouldn't it).
            I seem to have heard both opinions.

            So, anyway, what tehta was it that you had in mind for _ä_? :)

            Hisilome
          • j_mach_wust
            Melroch Aestan wrote: ... I wasn t thinking of å, that s right. What about using a doubled o-tehta? Or would that be too far off from common sense, or
            Message 5 of 25 , Apr 8, 2006
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              Melroch 'Aestan wrote:
              ...
              > for Swedish as well: _y, ä, ö_ become Yanta with U. A, O tehtar,
              > _å_ becomes Úre with A-tehta, while _aj, ej, oj, uj_ become
              > Anna with the respective tehtar, and _au/ao, eu_ become Vala
              > with A, E tehtar. The only real problem with this scheme is
              > when _j_ follows _y, å, ä, ö_: I have to put a double dot
              > under the digraph for these sounds. This scheme has the
              > advantage that you don't have to find a tehta for _å_,
              > which is a bit pesky. Per Lindberg proposes a doubled
              > A-tehta, on the analogy that the _å_ sound originates in
              > a rounded (back) _a_, but that tehta is unwieldy to write
              > and downright ugly. I prefer the mirrored U-tehta,
              > (á in the Tengwar Annatar Alt font) but am not wholly
              > happy with that either...

              I wasn't thinking of å, that's right. What about using a doubled
              o-tehta? Or would that be too far off from common sense, or required
              otherwise? I don't like that doubled a-tehta either, but neither the
              mirrored u-tehta, which is a Christopher Tolkien tehta if I'm not
              mistaken. Another possible solution: If you use the left curl (the
              more usual u-tehta) for _o_, then its modification (the usual tehta
              for following w) might be fitting for _å_.

              > If by "more complex vowel systems" you mean ones
              > that distinguish /9/ from /2/ (/œ/ from /ø/), /O/ from /o/ and
              > perhaps /E/, /e/, /a/, /A/ all from one another, right?

              Exactly!

              > Wouldn't it then make most sense to use the following?
              >
              > e = / 2 = // o = O-tehta
              >
              > E = \ 9 = \\ O = mirrored U-tehta

              I've been using the following (or modifications thereof, such as
              swapping the E grade signs with the i grade signs):

              e = // 2 = \\ o = (( [read this as doubled o-tehta]
              E = / 9 = \ O = (

              You're proposal has the advantage of using the doubling relation for
              all rounded front vowels, while I propose a more general
              'modification' relation. However, it has the disadvantage of requiring
              the mirrored left curl... Instead of that, it might again be possible
              to take the left curl and the modified left curl, for instance like this:

              i = . y = .. u = (
              e = \ 2 = \\ o = ~
              E = / 9 = // O = )

              That's a pretty vowel tehtar system. However, it has the disadvantage
              that there's no following w tehta available anymore. I'll have to
              think it over.

              > If you have a system that in addition distinguishes
              > /I/ from /i/ and /Y/ from /y/ as I believe I've
              > read that some Alemannic dialects do, you of course
              > get into a whole new set of problems that I don't
              > know how to solve however...

              From what I know, no Alemannic dialect has a 5 grade vowel system:
              Those that have distinct /i/ grade and /I/ grade have only a single
              /e/ grade (Western Switzerland), while those that have distinct /e/
              grade and /E/ grade have only a single /i/ grade (Eastern
              Switzerland). The _ä_, distinguished by all dialects, may be
              considered belonging to the same grade as _a_. Some analyze that _ä_
              as [a], but I perceive it as a markedly different sound from what I
              consider to be [a] in French, German, Spanish or Italian (though
              Italian /a/ may sound similar), so I prefer to analyze it as [æ],
              which I think is also the more widespread view, even though that sound
              is more open than normal English [æ]. But then, I've once seen an
              unusual analysis of German /a/ not as [a], but as [6] (turned 'a'),
              though I don't remember where, which would allow for Alemannic _ä_ to
              be analyzed as [a]. I believe IPA is no exact science (but still very
              useful).

              > See above. FWIW the German _ae, oe, ue_ spellings are every
              > bit as illogical, given the argument that these sounds were
              > never diphthongs, not to speak of the entire Dutch -- or
              > English -- system of spelling vowels! In terms of *spellings*
              > German _ae, oe_ are analogous to Sindarin _ae, oe_ (especially
              > given that many instances of _oe_ in Sindarin represent /2/ as
              > the i-umlaut of *o, which later became /e/, and that even
              > Sindarin _ae_ became /E/ in some pronunciations e.g.
              > Aegamloth which became Egalmoth (sic!) in the pronunciation
              > of Gondor. So either way you have two attested spellings and
              > one unattested.

              Certainly. But then, I prefer using tehtar for simple vowels and
              combinations of tehtar and vala/anna/yanta/úre/stemless calma for
              diphthongs. And even though we know that _oe_ sometimes represents
              /2/, we don't know how that kind of _oe_ was written in tengwar.

              > for a one-off transcription of
              > a name I think aesthetical considerations may take the upper
              > hand. I would e.g. not use Quessetéma for velars in a
              > non-Quenya name in the middle of a Quenya sentence, but dumb
              > down the name to Quenya phonemes, and then spell it accordingly,
              > since I think that is what the Elves would have done.

              I agree, in the middle of a Quenya sentence, but if the name is
              isolated, I guess the misreading *Tschünzel is more probable than the
              misreading *Kwuintsle/*Kwauintsale, since the latter misreading
              requires the wrong and improbable assumption that it is a Quenya name.

              > I agree that the _e_ needn't be written in
              > _-el, -en, -em, -er_ endings. Yiddish spelling
              > curiously uses _-l, -n_ but _-er_!

              What do you know! In my dialect, in turn, _der_ is spelled _dr_ by
              many (not me), but other instances of unstressed weak _-er_ are hardly
              ever spelled _-r_. And I've never seen _-l_ (there is no _-en_), but
              this might be because people consider it a typical spelling of Swabian
              or Austro-Bavarian, just like many (not me!) are beginning to consider
              the spelling _ä_ for schwa a typical Alemannic spelling, or like _nh_
              is typical for Portuguese, _ñ_ typical for Spanish and _ny_ typical
              for Catalonian: Identity through spelling.



              --------------------


              Hisilome wrote:
              ...
              > Or maybe there are other instances of _umlaut a_ (ae/ä) in Tolkien's
              > tengwar writings that you were thinking of?
              > Hm, would the inverted A-tehta in DTS 41 (_clAEdioul&s_) qualify?
              > Then we could use that for _ä_ (alongside the "normal" A-tehta for
              > _a_ and the double over-dot for _ü_) in a German mode...?

              That's the instance I was referring to, and the same tehta also
              appears in DTS 39 in the words _Spanish_, _nationalist_ and _backing_.

              > The thing is, I'm not really sure how Latin _ae_ was pronounced
              > (or how Tolkien pronounced it, for that matter ;))--like Quenya _ai_
              > (or the sound in English _AIsle_), i.e. as a diphthong, not an
              > umlaut, or rather more like something between the _a_ in English
              > _angry_ and the _e_ in English _empty_ (which would pretty much
              > correspond to German _ä_, wouldn't it).
              > I seem to have heard both opinions.

              That depends on what stage of the language you're referring to. In
              classical Latin, it was [ae], but in postclassical Latin, the sound of
              _ae_ merged into _e_. I don't remember the time frame. However, there
              is little doubt that the word seen in DTS 41, whether it be considered
              a Latin word or an English word, is written according to English
              pronunciation. This is also substantiated by the use of the typical
              English diphthong /ou/ and by the unusual tehta for the last vowel
              instead of the normal u-tehta that would correspond to the Latin
              pronunciation.


              ---------------------------
              j. 'mach' wust
              http://machhezan.tripod.com
              ---------------------------
            • hisilome
              ... _backing_. [[[ Right. I also saw that you use this exact tehta for what seems to be an _ä_ sound (correct me if I m wrong) in your Bernese German mode, so
              Message 6 of 25 , Apr 8, 2006
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                --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@...>
                wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hisilome wrote:
                > ...
                > > Or maybe there are other instances of _umlaut a_ (ae/? in
                >Tolkien's tengwar writings that you were thinking of?
                > > Hm, would the inverted A-tehta in DTS 41 (_clAEdioul&s_)
                >qualify? Then we could use that for _ä_ (alongside the "normal" A-
                >tehta for _a_ and the double over-dot for _ü_) in a German mode...?
                >
                > That's the instance I was referring to, and the same tehta also
                > appears in DTS 39 in the words _Spanish_, _nationalist_ and
                _backing_.

                [[[ Right. I also saw that you use this exact tehta for what seems
                to be an _ä_ sound (correct me if I'm wrong) in your Bernese German
                mode, so I assume you would also use it for actual _ä_ (umlaut a)
                in High German. ]]]


                > > The thing is, I'm not really sure how Latin _ae_ was
                >>pronounced...
                >
                > That depends on what stage of the language you're referring to. In
                > classical Latin, it was [ae],

                [[[ So that would be a diphthong then, like Quenya _ai_ (or maybe
                more like Sindarin _ae_??), correct? I just want to get this
                straight... ;) ]]]


                but in postclassical Latin, the sound of _ae_ merged into _e_.

                [[[ And this would roughly correspond to _ä_, wouldn't it?
                Well, as you also write, it's hardly relevant as Tolkien most likely
                had an "English" pronuncation in mind here (as in DTS 39 _Spanish_
                etc.)

                Have you ever bothered to create an entire mode for High
                ("Standard") German? There are at least one or two out there, like
                the one Danny mentioned, but I'd be curious to see yours (if it
                exists). ]]]

                Hisilome
              • Melroch 'Aestan
                ... The problem with the W-tehta is that people have used it for _ö_ in the past, before // was invented... One possible solution would be to use the O-tehta
                Message 7 of 25 , Apr 8, 2006
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                  j_mach_wust skrev:
                  > Melroch 'Aestan wrote:
                  > ...
                  >
                  >>for Swedish as well: _y, ä, ö_ become Yanta with U. A, O tehtar,
                  >>_å_ becomes Úre with A-tehta, while _aj, ej, oj, uj_ become
                  >>Anna with the respective tehtar, and _au/ao, eu_ become Vala
                  >>with A, E tehtar. The only real problem with this scheme is
                  >>when _j_ follows _y, å, ä, ö_: I have to put a double dot
                  >>under the digraph for these sounds. This scheme has the
                  >>advantage that you don't have to find a tehta for _å_,
                  >>which is a bit pesky. Per Lindberg proposes a doubled
                  >>A-tehta, on the analogy that the _å_ sound originates in
                  >>a rounded (back) _a_, but that tehta is unwieldy to write
                  >>and downright ugly. I prefer the mirrored U-tehta,
                  >>(á in the Tengwar Annatar Alt font) but am not wholly
                  >>happy with that either...
                  >
                  >
                  > I wasn't thinking of å, that's right. What about using a doubled
                  > o-tehta? Or would that be too far off from common sense, or required
                  > otherwise? I don't like that doubled a-tehta either, but neither the
                  > mirrored u-tehta, which is a Christopher Tolkien tehta if I'm not
                  > mistaken. Another possible solution: If you use the left curl (the
                  > more usual u-tehta) for _o_, then its modification (the usual tehta
                  > for following w) might be fitting for _å_.

                  The problem with the W-tehta is that people have used
                  it for _ö_ in the past, before // was invented...
                  One possible solution would be to use the O-tehta
                  for _å_ and a doubled O-tehta -- (( -- for _o_,
                  since Swedish _o_ in most cases has the same sound
                  as English _oo_, and the same sound as _å_ in the
                  remaining cases. Historically speaking Swedish back
                  vowels were shifted upward-forward, so that _u_ is /8/,
                  _o_ /u/ and _å_ /o/. Most people feel that the
                  orthographic vowels _u, o_ should be written with
                  the same tehtar as the vowels Romanized _u, o_ in
                  Quenya and Sindarin; I'm more phonetically minded,
                  but obviously I have to consider the opinion of
                  potential readers of what I write, thus the mirrored
                  U-tehta -- treating it as available for any third
                  back vowel -- is the best alternative, however bad.
                  I'm well aware that it is probably CJRT's idiosyncratic
                  alternative for -- or even mistake for -- the
                  ordinary U-tehta.

                  >>If by "more complex vowel systems" you mean ones
                  >>that distinguish /9/ from /2/ (/œ/ from /ø/), /O/ from /o/ and
                  >>perhaps /E/, /e/, /a/, /A/ all from one another, right?
                  >
                  >
                  > Exactly!
                  >
                  >
                  >>Wouldn't it then make most sense to use the following?
                  >>
                  >>e = / 2 = // o = O-tehta
                  >>
                  >>E = \ 9 = \\ O = mirrored U-tehta
                  >
                  >
                  > I've been using the following (or modifications thereof, such as
                  > swapping the E grade signs with the i grade signs):
                  >
                  > e = // 2 = \\ o = (( [read this as doubled o-tehta]
                  > E = / 9 = \ O = (
                  >
                  > You're proposal has the advantage of using the doubling relation for
                  > all rounded front vowels, while I propose a more general
                  > 'modification' relation. However, it has the disadvantage of requiring
                  > the mirrored left curl...

                  I agree that your system makes more sense, with its
                  systematic use of doubling to indicate "closer vowel",
                  but isn't the symmetry broken if you use the doubled
                  dot for /y/? I guess you could use the "caret" tehta
                  as in "by" (IIRC) on the LOTR title page for /y/, but
                  then again that one is confusable with the æ-tehta.

                  > Instead of that, it might again be possible
                  > to take the left curl and the modified left curl, for instance like this:
                  >
                  > i = . y = .. u = (
                  > e = \ 2 = \\ o = ~
                  > E = / 9 = // O = )
                  >
                  > That's a pretty vowel tehtar system. However, it has the disadvantage
                  > that there's no following w tehta available anymore. I'll have to
                  > think it over.

                  It certainly is more symmetrical. I would use / for /e/
                  and \ for /E/ however -- as a mnemonic, since it is _é_
                  that is /e/ and _è_ that is /E/ in French. Actually it
                  would feel very strange to use your assignments when
                  writing French, although I suppose the opposite assignment
                  would have to be used when writing Portuguese, for which
                  the values of the accents is opposite to French!

                  As for the following-W-tehta I think it is often a bit
                  of an embarrasment, since it gets messy when combining
                  it with vowel tehtar an the nasal stroke. Also when
                  writing French you would need a following-/H/-tehta in
                  words like _nuit_: better to use Úre for /w/, Yanta
                  or Anna for /j/ and Vala for /H/ across the line.
                  (Phonetic transcription again as per <http://www.theiling.de/ipa/>!)
                  (BTW I wouldn't use Wilya for /w/ when using the Quessetéma
                  for velars rather than for labiovelars. Wilya could OTOH
                  be used for [@_^], [A_^] or /M\/ if Quessetéma is used for velars.

                  >>If you have a system that in addition distinguishes
                  >>/I/ from /i/ and /Y/ from /y/ as I believe I've
                  >>read that some Alemannic dialects do, you of course
                  >>get into a whole new set of problems that I don't
                  >>know how to solve however...
                  >
                  >
                  >>From what I know, no Alemannic dialect has a 5 grade vowel system:
                  > Those that have distinct /i/ grade and /I/ grade have only a single
                  > /e/ grade (Western Switzerland), while those that have distinct /e/
                  > grade and /E/ grade have only a single /i/ grade (Eastern
                  > Switzerland). The _ä_, distinguished by all dialects, may be
                  > considered belonging to the same grade as _a_. Some analyze that _ä_
                  > as [a], but I perceive it as a markedly different sound from what I
                  > consider to be [a] in French, German, Spanish or Italian (though
                  > Italian /a/ may sound similar), so I prefer to analyze it as [æ],
                  > which I think is also the more widespread view, even though that sound
                  > is more open than normal English [æ]. But then, I've once seen an
                  > unusual analysis of German /a/ not as [a], but as [6] (turned 'a'),
                  > though I don't remember where, which would allow for Alemannic _ä_ to
                  > be analyzed as [a]. I believe IPA is no exact science (but still very
                  > useful).

                  IPA is not meant to have symbols for all possible sounds.
                  That would be quite impossible for vowels, but compare
                  CanIPA <http://venus.unive.it/canipa/>! As for English
                  /&/ it is usually pharyngealized, i.e. [&_?\], but that's
                  *not* part of the definition of the IPA symbol.

                  >>See above. FWIW the German _ae, oe, ue_ spellings are every
                  >>bit as illogical, given the argument that these sounds were
                  >>never diphthongs, not to speak of the entire Dutch -- or
                  >>English -- system of spelling vowels! In terms of *spellings*
                  >>German _ae, oe_ are analogous to Sindarin _ae, oe_ (especially
                  >>given that many instances of _oe_ in Sindarin represent /2/ as
                  >>the i-umlaut of *o, which later became /e/, and that even
                  >>Sindarin _ae_ became /E/ in some pronunciations e.g.
                  >>Aegamloth which became Egalmoth (sic!) in the pronunciation
                  >>of Gondor. So either way you have two attested spellings and
                  >>one unattested.
                  >
                  >
                  > Certainly. But then, I prefer using tehtar for simple vowels and
                  > combinations of tehtar and vala/anna/yanta/úre/stemless calma for
                  > diphthongs. And even though we know that _oe_ sometimes represents
                  > /2/, we don't know how that kind of _oe_ was written in tengwar.

                  That's true -- except that it probably was written
                  differently from /oe/! Still my use of "digraphs"
                  for umlauts is mainly an aesthetic consideration
                  anyway.

                  >>for a one-off transcription of
                  >>a name I think aesthetical considerations may take the upper
                  >>hand. I would e.g. not use Quessetéma for velars in a
                  >>non-Quenya name in the middle of a Quenya sentence, but dumb
                  >>down the name to Quenya phonemes, and then spell it accordingly,
                  >>since I think that is what the Elves would have done.
                  >
                  >
                  > I agree, in the middle of a Quenya sentence, but if the name is
                  > isolated, I guess the misreading *Tschünzel is more probable than the
                  > misreading *Kwuintsle/*Kwauintsale, since the latter misreading
                  > requires the wrong and improbable assumption that it is a Quenya name.
                  >
                  >
                  >>I agree that the _e_ needn't be written in
                  >>_-el, -en, -em, -er_ endings. Yiddish spelling
                  >>curiously uses _-l, -n_ but _-er_!
                  >
                  >
                  > What do you know! In my dialect, in turn, _der_ is spelled _dr_ by
                  > many (not me), but other instances of unstressed weak _-er_ are hardly
                  > ever spelled _-r_. And I've never seen _-l_ (there is no _-en_), but
                  > this might be because people consider it a typical spelling of Swabian
                  > or Austro-Bavarian, just like many (not me!) are beginning to consider
                  > the spelling _ä_ for schwa a typical Alemannic spelling, or like _nh_
                  > is typical for Portuguese, _ñ_ typical for Spanish and _ny_ typical
                  > for Catalonian: Identity through spelling.

                  Tell me about it! Historically Swedish switched from
                  _æ, ø_ to _ä, ö_ just to be different from Danish, and
                  Danes resisted the introduction of _å_ rather than _aa_
                  not for practical reasons, but because _å_ was "Swedish"!
                  I guess the sensible Norwegian use of _sj_ for /S/ in
                  loan-words have no chance in Swedish and Danish for
                  the same reason.


                  > --------------------
                  >
                  >
                  > Hisilome wrote:
                  > ...
                  >
                  >>Or maybe there are other instances of _umlaut a_ (ae/ä) in Tolkien's
                  >>tengwar writings that you were thinking of?
                  >>Hm, would the inverted A-tehta in DTS 41 (_clAEdioul&s_) qualify?
                  >>Then we could use that for _ä_ (alongside the "normal" A-tehta for
                  >>_a_ and the double over-dot for _ü_) in a German mode...?
                  >
                  >
                  > That's the instance I was referring to, and the same tehta also
                  > appears in DTS 39 in the words _Spanish_, _nationalist_ and _backing_.
                  >
                  >
                  >>The thing is, I'm not really sure how Latin _ae_ was pronounced
                  >>(or how Tolkien pronounced it, for that matter ;))--like Quenya _ai_
                  >>(or the sound in English _AIsle_), i.e. as a diphthong, not an
                  >>umlaut, or rather more like something between the _a_ in English
                  >>_angry_ and the _e_ in English _empty_ (which would pretty much
                  >>correspond to German _ä_, wouldn't it).
                  >>I seem to have heard both opinions.
                  >
                  >
                  > That depends on what stage of the language you're referring to. In
                  > classical Latin, it was [ae], but in postclassical Latin, the sound of
                  > _ae_ merged into _e_. I don't remember the time frame. However, there
                  > is little doubt that the word seen in DTS 41, whether it be considered
                  > a Latin word or an English word, is written according to English
                  > pronunciation. This is also substantiated by the use of the typical
                  > English diphthong /ou/ and by the unusual tehta for the last vowel
                  > instead of the normal u-tehta that would correspond to the Latin
                  > pronunciation.
                  >
                  >

                  Also Tolkien obviously used this tehta for Old and
                  Modern English /æ/ in addition to and quite possibly
                  even before using it for Latin _ae_. The point is
                  that however it is precisely pronounced most Germanic
                  languages have a sound that speakers perceive as
                  "fronted _a_", and for these sounds this tehta
                  is obviously the most appropriate. The same goes
                  for Finnish, BTW.

                  --

                  /BP 8^)>
                  --
                  Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                  A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
                  __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
                  \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
                  / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
                  / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
                  /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
                  Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
                  ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
                  || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
                • Melroch 'Aestan
                  (Phonetic transcriptions are again as per !) ... Actually what happened in Latin was that previously secondary distinctions of
                  Message 8 of 25 , Apr 8, 2006
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                    (Phonetic transcriptions are again
                    as per <http://www.theiling.de/ipa/>!)

                    j_mach_wust skrev:

                    >>but in postclassical Latin, the sound of _ae_ merged into _e_.
                    >>
                    >>[[[ And this would roughly correspond to _ä_, wouldn't it?
                    >
                    >
                    > No, to _e_. It's identification with _ä_ is an innovation of languages
                    > that have _ä_ such as German.
                    >

                    Actually what happened in Latin was that previously
                    secondary distinctions of quality became the primary
                    distinctions, while the previously primary distinctions
                    of length disappeared, like this:

                    i: > i
                    i > I
                    e: > e
                    e > E
                    u: > u
                    u > U
                    o: > o
                    o > O
                    a: > a
                    a > a (note that in _a_ length simply disappeared!)

                    What happened to the diphthongs was that _ae_ merged into /E/
                    from short _e_ while the more rare _oe_ merged into /e/
                    from long _e:_.

                    For comparison with Romance languages the lax high vowels
                    /I/ and /U/ later merged into the high mid /e/ and /o/,
                    and the low mid /E/ and /O/ in most positions diphthongized
                    to _ie_ and _uo/ue_. In French this _ue_ later became /2/!

                    As for equating Latin _ae_ with _ä_: even if /ae/ > /&/
                    didn't happen in Romance, Germans have traditionally read
                    Latin written _æ_ as their _ä_, and even Latin _œ_ as their
                    _ö_, so you get spellings like _Cäsar, Crösus_. Certainly
                    the same was the case with Old English speakers, pronouncing
                    Latin _æ_ as their /&/. But this is purely spelling
                    pronunciation and has nothing to do with actual historical
                    sound change.

                    --

                    /BP 8^)>
                    --
                    Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                    A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
                    __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
                    \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
                    / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
                    / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
                    /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
                    Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
                    ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
                    || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
                  • j_mach_wust
                    ... That s it, roughly like Quenya _ai_ or like Sindarin _ae_ or like the vowel sound in English tie . ... No, to _e_. It s identification with _ä_ is an
                    Message 9 of 25 , Apr 8, 2006
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                      Hisilome wrote:
                      > > In classical Latin, it was [ae],
                      >
                      > [[[ So that would be a diphthong then, like Quenya _ai_ (or maybe
                      > more like Sindarin _ae_??), correct? I just want to get this
                      > straight... ;) ]]]

                      That's it, roughly like Quenya _ai_ or like Sindarin _ae_ or like the
                      vowel sound in English 'tie'.

                      > but in postclassical Latin, the sound of _ae_ merged into _e_.
                      >
                      > [[[ And this would roughly correspond to _ä_, wouldn't it?

                      No, to _e_. It's identification with _ä_ is an innovation of languages
                      that have _ä_ such as German.

                      > Have you ever bothered to create an entire mode for High
                      > ("Standard") German? There are at least one or two out there, like
                      > the one Danny mentioned, but I'd be curious to see yours (if it
                      > exists). ]]]

                      I sure have, and there used to be an online description, but not any more.

                      Let's see... Phonemic mode vowels:

                      i: . ü: .. u: )
                      e: / ö: \ o: (

                      ä: v a: ^

                      Vowel length is expressed by placing the vowels on a long carrier (I
                      also use a long carrier in the case of ä, even though that's redundant).

                      The vowel tehtar are placed on the following consonants, but schwa is
                      expressed by a single dot under the preceding consonant since many
                      words end with schwa. Consequently, syllabic /l m n r/ are spelled
                      without preceding schwa unless it is clearly pronounced, in words like
                      _kennen, stellen_ (of course, these are no syllabic consonants then).

                      _ö_ might as well be represented with a double acute //.

                      Dipththongs are represented with vala and anna combinations, of course.


                      Consonants:
                      Plain general use with extended tyeller for affricates (though I'd
                      admit I prefer calma for /tS/).

                      Óre is used for vocalized _r_. Since I prefer a transcription where
                      vocalisation of _r_ occurs only after long vowels (and of course in
                      syllabic _r_), I don't mark vowel length before óre, so I transcribe
                      _wir_ /vi:r/ [vi:6] with single dot on óre, but no long carrier, and
                      _wirr_ /vIr/ [vIR] with single dot on rómen.

                      Vilya is used for glottal stop, but I don't mark it at the beginning
                      of a word. ... Now that I think about it, halla might also be
                      considered for that purpose...


                      Orthographic mode:
                      Mostly the same.

                      I usually express both the doubling of vowel letters and the
                      combination of vowel letter + 'lengthening _h_' by the long carrier,
                      though the latter might as well be represented by plain hyarmen
                      (indeed, this is more advantageous for words like _Rehe_).

                      I've started to express _ie_ by single dot on stemless calma.

                      The dot below is only used for final _e_.

                      _y_ is represented by the breve accent.

                      I prefer to distinguish _v_ and _w_, using ampa for the former, vala
                      for the latter (or the sign for following _w_).

                      Silme and esse are used for _s_ and _ss/ß_, not for /s/ and /z/.
                      Double consonant letters are expressed by the bar below, though I
                      sometimes use alda for _ll_ (also because most computer fonts don't
                      allow for a bar to be placed below alda).


                      ---------------------------
                      j. 'mach' wust
                      http://machhezan.tripod.com
                      ---------------------------
                    • j_mach_wust
                      Melroch Aestan wrote: ... People might have, but Tolkien hasn t. This is my simplistic view on these matters. I don t care much for posttolkenian traditions
                      Message 10 of 25 , Apr 8, 2006
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                        Melroch 'Aestan wrote:
                        ...
                        > The problem with the W-tehta is that people have used
                        > it for _ö_ in the past, before // was invented...

                        People might have, but Tolkien hasn't. This is my simplistic view on
                        these matters. I don't care much for posttolkenian traditions in
                        Tolkien's work.

                        > I agree that your system makes more sense, with its
                        > systematic use of doubling to indicate "closer vowel",
                        > but isn't the symmetry broken if you use the doubled
                        > dot for /y/?

                        There are two kinds of symmetries: The roundedness symmetry between
                        unrounded and rounded front vowels; the vowel height symmetry between
                        close-mid and open-mid vowels. What we have attested is the use of
                        doubling for the roundedness symmetries (i = . y = ..). The problem
                        is that only one of these symmetries can be represented by simple
                        doubling, while the other has to be expressed by a more general way of
                        "modification".

                        My original system expresses the vowel height symmetry through
                        doubling and the roundedness symmetry through "modification". You're
                        right that nonetheless, it expresses one instance of roundedness
                        symmetry through doubling. However, I consider doubling just a special
                        case of "modification". A doubled dot is another dot modification. So
                        I can still consider the system to be consistent. Call this sophistry,
                        if you like; it's my way to save the 'modified left curl' for the use
                        of following _w_ sign.

                        But the expression of the roundedness symmetry through doubling has
                        the advantage that it fits better with Tolkien's attested tehtar for
                        _i_ and _y_. I mean, describing it as 'doubling' is more exact than
                        describing it as 'modification'. Neither description is wrong, but one
                        is more precise, so it fits better.

                        And now I see an obvious way to express the roundedness symmetry
                        through doubling but still preserve the following w tehta:

                        i = . y = .. u = )
                        e = / 2 = // o = (
                        E = \ 9 = \\ O = ((

                        It's the same trick again I used above to explain the i-y case: The
                        height symmetry is expressed through "modification", and by
                        modification I mean any kind of modification (preferrably doubling if
                        still available). Also, this very same system could be used for the
                        Swedish vowels:

                        i = . y = .. u = )
                        e = / ö = // o = (
                        å = ((

                        By the way, for my dialect I rather swap i tehta and e tehta, since it
                        does not have two e-grades, but two i-grades:

                        i = \ y = \\ u = ))
                        I = / Y = // U = )
                        e = . 2 = .. o = (

                        It's time I get used to these new vowel systems!

                        > I would use / for /e/
                        > and \ for /E/ however -- as a mnemonic, since it is _é_
                        > that is /e/ and _è_ that is /E/ in French. Actually it
                        > would feel very strange to use your assignments when
                        > writing French,

                        You're certainly right! This shows I haven't used this system yet...
                        The reason why I chose / for _è_ was that I guess French è-grade
                        vowels occur more often than é-grade vowels and so I chose the easier
                        signs for è-grade. But I'd say your practical "iconic" argument is
                        more important.

                        > As for the following-W-tehta I think it is often a bit
                        > of an embarrasment, since it gets messy when combining
                        > it with vowel tehtar an the nasal stroke.

                        I've gotten used to it, and now it's become an indispensable part of
                        my tengwar writing. It may get messy, but thats all attested.

                        > Also when
                        > writing French you would need a following-/H/-tehta in
                        > words like _nuit_: better to use Úre for /w/, Yanta
                        > or Anna for /j/ and Vala for /H/ across the line.

                        I express /H/ as if it were /wj/: Vala with two dots below in initial
                        position or both two dots below and the modified left curl above when
                        there's a preceding letter. Tehtar crowding, but it works fine.

                        > (Phonetic transcription again as per <http://www.theiling.de/ipa/>!)
                        > (BTW I wouldn't use Wilya for /w/ when using the Quessetéma
                        > for velars rather than for labiovelars. Wilya could OTOH
                        > be used for [@_^], [A_^] or /M\/ if Quessetéma is used for velars.

                        Or for [?].

                        > Also Tolkien obviously used this tehta for Old and
                        > Modern English /æ/ in addition to and quite possibly
                        > even before using it for Latin _ae_.

                        Did he even use it for Latin _ae_ at all? If I'm not mistaken, the
                        "Latin" word identified with the inscription of DTS 41 is _gladiolus_,
                        not *_glaediolus_. And I think it's misleading to consider the
                        spellings of that word to be representations of Latin sounds, since
                        it's rather representations of English sounds, even though the word
                        might be considered Latin.


                        ---------------------------
                        j. 'mach' wust
                        http://machhezan.tripod.com
                        ---------------------------
                      • Melroch 'Aestan
                        ... I see your point, but while you can confuse people, you can t confuse Tolkien anymore. Besides *he* would probably just have invented new ad_hoc tehtar!
                        Message 11 of 25 , Apr 8, 2006
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                          j_mach_wust skrev:
                          > Melroch 'Aestan wrote:
                          > ...
                          >
                          >>The problem with the W-tehta is that people have used
                          >>it for _ö_ in the past, before // was invented...
                          >
                          >
                          > People might have, but Tolkien hasn't. This is my simplistic view on
                          > these matters. I don't care much for posttolkenian traditions in
                          > Tolkien's work.

                          I see your point, but while you can confuse people,
                          you can't confuse Tolkien anymore. Besides *he*
                          would probably just have invented new ad_hoc tehtar!

                          [big snip]

                          > But the expression of the roundedness symmetry through doubling has
                          > the advantage that it fits better with Tolkien's attested tehtar for
                          > _i_ and _y_. I mean, describing it as 'doubling' is more exact than
                          > describing it as 'modification'. Neither description is wrong, but one
                          > is more precise, so it fits better.
                          >
                          > And now I see an obvious way to express the roundedness symmetry
                          > through doubling but still preserve the following w tehta:
                          >
                          > i = . y = .. u = )
                          > e = / 2 = // o = (
                          > E = \ 9 = \\ O = ((
                          >
                          > It's the same trick again I used above to explain the i-y case: The
                          > height symmetry is expressed through "modification", and by
                          > modification I mean any kind of modification (preferrably doubling if
                          > still available).

                          Since back vowels tend to get more rounded the
                          higher they are it might be a good idea to use
                          (( = /o/ and ( = /O/: doubling would then indicate
                          relatively greater rounding. That way you can still
                          -- tenuously -- preserve consistency in the use of
                          the doubling modification.

                          > Also, this very same system could be used for the
                          > Swedish vowels:
                          >
                          > i = . y = .. u = )
                          > e = / ö = // o = (
                          > å = ((

                          For the mnemonic reason i said before I'd prefer
                          (( for _o_: this letter usually has the same sound
                          as English _oo_; moreover /u/ is usually derived
                          from historical /o:/, although few beside me would
                          be sensitive to that consideration!

                          Also should it come to expressing my native dialect
                          there would be three extra vowel phonemes to consider.
                          I would express these like this:

                          i /i/ = . y /y/ = .. u /u\/ = (( o /u/ = ))
                          e /e/ = / ö /2/ = // û /8/ = ( å /o/ = )
                          ä /E/ = \
                          â /a/ = v /ô/ /9-/ = \\ a /A/ = ^

                          which I feel would be a more consistent use of doubling,
                          by the "more closed--more rounded" criterion.

                          (I'm anyway ignoring the fact that long /A/ is [Q:]!
                          Length is not phonemic in Swedish, the rule basically
                          being that a stressed vowel is long if not followed
                          by a consonant cluster or a geminate consonant. Still
                          people tend to hear phonetic vowel length better than
                          phonetic consonant length, so the question about length
                          is a bit vexed both in phonology and in Tengwar writing...)

                          > By the way, for my dialect I rather swap i tehta and e tehta, since it
                          > does not have two e-grades, but two i-grades:
                          >
                          > i = \ y = \\ u = ))
                          > I = / Y = // U = )
                          > e = . 2 = .. o = (

                          Yes, that makes sense, although AFAIK the use
                          of . for _i_ and / for _e_ is a CJRT usage,
                          which you maybe would consider to speak against it.

                          If having to distinguish two levels of i-vowels
                          I'd prefer using the caret tehta for /Y/ and double
                          it (vertically) for /y/ -- and of course . = /I/
                          and .. = /i/. There would be the slight problem
                          that no font as yet provides for a doubled caret
                          tehta, be it vertically or horizontally doubled!
                          (At least for me that's a problem: my hands are
                          lame and I write atrociously by hand...)

                          > It's time I get used to these new vowel systems!
                          >
                          >
                          >>I would use / for /e/
                          >>and \ for /E/ however -- as a mnemonic, since it is _é_
                          >>that is /e/ and _è_ that is /E/ in French. Actually it
                          >>would feel very strange to use your assignments when
                          >>writing French,
                          >
                          >
                          > You're certainly right! This shows I haven't used this system yet...
                          > The reason why I chose / for _è_ was that I guess French è-grade
                          > vowels occur more often than é-grade vowels and so I chose the easier
                          > signs for è-grade. But I'd say your practical "iconic" argument is
                          > more important.

                          Yes. If one would use \ for the vowel indicated
                          with acute accent in the Roman orthography one
                          would surely write it wrong more often than not!

                          For French I would personally prefer a system closer
                          to the Roman orthography, i.e. ( for _u_, (( for _ou_,
                          ) for all of _o, ô, au, eau_, )) for both of _eu, êu_
                          / for _é_ and \ for _è_, but . for _e_ when it is /E/
                          and . below when it is [@] or silent, and .. for _i, î_,
                          v for _ai, aî, ei_.
                          This is probably because I'm unfamiliar and uncomfortable
                          with spoken French and simply am not sure about the
                          distribution of /2/ vs. /9/ and /o/ vs. /O/.

                          >>As for the following-W-tehta I think it is often a bit
                          >>of an embarrasment, since it gets messy when combining
                          >>it with vowel tehtar an the nasal stroke.
                          >
                          >
                          > I've gotten used to it, and now it's become an indispensable part of
                          > my tengwar writing. It may get messy, but thats all attested.

                          Yes sure, but then in a language like Icelandic, where older
                          /Q/ has become /9/, you almost have to use the W-tehta for
                          that phoneme, if you are going to use the same mode for both
                          the old and the new language (which anyway is possible only
                          because the orthography is archaizing...)

                          >>Also when
                          >>writing French you would need a following-/H/-tehta in
                          >>words like _nuit_: better to use Úre for /w/, Yanta
                          >>or Anna for /j/ and Vala for /H/ across the line.
                          >
                          >
                          > I express /H/ as if it were /wj/: Vala with two dots below in initial
                          > position or both two dots below and the modified left curl above when
                          > there's a preceding letter. Tehtar crowding, but it works fine.

                          Oh I see; yes that works too! :-) Do you have any particular
                          reason for choosing the analysis /wj/ over /jw/? I guess it
                          would matter only word-initially. My hunch is that initial /j/
                          is much more common than initial /w/ in French (I can only really
                          think of _oui_) but I guess that whatever you use for initial /w/
                          with a .. below looks better than Anna with a W-tehta above.
                          What do you use for initial /w/ BTW. I guess Úre or Vala.

                          >>(Phonetic transcription again as per <http://www.theiling.de/ipa/>!)
                          >>(BTW I wouldn't use Wilya for /w/ when using the Quessetéma
                          >>for velars rather than for labiovelars. Wilya could OTOH
                          >>be used for [@_^], [A_^] or /M\/ if Quessetéma is used for velars.
                          >
                          >
                          > Or for [?].

                          Yes, though I would rather use Halla (single rising stem)
                          for /?/. Certainly in Arabic Halla for Hamza and
                          Wilya for `Ayn!

                          >>Also Tolkien obviously used this tehta for Old and
                          >>Modern English /æ/ in addition to and quite possibly
                          >>even before using it for Latin _ae_.
                          >
                          >
                          > Did he even use it for Latin _ae_ at all? If I'm not mistaken, the
                          > "Latin" word identified with the inscription of DTS 41 is _gladiolus_,
                          > not *_glaediolus_. And I think it's misleading to consider the
                          > spellings of that word to be representations of Latin sounds, since
                          > it's rather representations of English sounds, even though the word
                          > might be considered Latin.

                          I certainly consider _gladiolus_ to be "English" here.
                          In _daemonio_ in the same source _ae_ is curiously
                          Yanta with /, indicating an English pronunciation of
                          Latin, so yes he probably didn't use "v-dots" for
                          *Latin* _ae_ only for (Old) English _æ_ -- in which
                          case it is certainly appropriate for German, Swedish
                          and Finnish _ä_, and for Danish and Norwegian _æ_!

                          --

                          /BP 8^)>
                          --
                          Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                          A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
                          __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
                          \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
                          / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
                          / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
                          /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
                          Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
                          ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
                          || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
                        • Melroch 'Aestan
                          ... We discussed this on Conlang list not so long ago, and concluded that any prefix or root which begins in a vowel in the orthography begins in a phonemic
                          Message 12 of 25 , Apr 8, 2006
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                            hisilome skrev:

                            > [ Ah! I thought the glottal stop in German wasn't "phonemic" at all,
                            > but only occuring as an inserted element (in multi-morphemic words)
                            > before morphemes that begin with a vowel, as between _e_ and _a_ in
                            > _Beamter_. My point being, is it even necessary to represent this in
                            > writing at all? And--excuse me for asking what may very well be a
                            > stupid question--where does the glottal stop occur at the beginning
                            > of a word? Maybe in something like _Sieh an_? Just curious... ]

                            We discussed this on Conlang list not so long ago,
                            and concluded that any prefix or root which begins
                            in a vowel in the orthography begins in a phonemic
                            glottal stop -- even when preceded by a consonant,
                            thus _unabhängig_ is /'?un?aphENIC/, and _Verein_
                            is /fEr'?ain/ though actual realization in rapid
                            speach may vary. My German L1 mother anyway insisted
                            that _Verein_ be [fE6'?aen], not [fE'raen] as I
                            would have it!
                            (Transcription as usual CXS: <http://www.theiling.de/ipa/>)

                            As for Christian Thalmann's mode it is obviously
                            *very* orthographic. I like it for the most part.

                            --

                            /BP 8^)>
                            --
                            Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                            A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
                            __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
                            \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
                            / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
                            / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
                            /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
                            Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
                            ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
                            || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
                          • hisilome
                            ... [ Well, first of all thanks to you (and Melroch!) for your detailed explanations on Latin _ae_ (and sound changes in the Latin vowel system in general).
                            Message 13 of 25 , Apr 8, 2006
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                              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@...>
                              wrote:
                              >

                              [ Well, first of all thanks to you (and Melroch!) for your detailed
                              explanations on Latin _ae_ (and sound changes in the Latin vowel
                              system in general).
                              Quite apart from that, there's so much in the discussion between you
                              guys in the last few posts that it'll take me a while to digest it
                              all. :)

                              But about the German mode: ]


                              > > Have you ever bothered to create an entire mode for High
                              > > ("Standard") German? There are at least one or two out there,
                              >like the one Danny mentioned, but I'd be curious to see yours
                              > > (if it exists).
                              >
                              > I sure have, and there used to be an online description, but not
                              >any more.
                              >
                              > Let's see... Phonemic mode vowels:
                              >
                              > i: . ü: .. u: )
                              > e: / ö: \ o: (
                              >
                              > ä: v a: ^

                              [ Exactly what I had expected after the last few posts! Except maybe
                              for _ö_, but you allow for the possibility of using the double acute
                              (in analogy to the spelling of _ü_) further down.

                              I'd certainly prefer to have distinct spellings for diphthongs (au,
                              ai/ei, eu/äu) and umlauts (ä, ö, ü). Christian Thalmann's mode, which
                              Danny mentioned, spells both kinds of sounds with combinations of
                              tehta plus uure/yanta, I guess in analogy to the spelling of Quenya
                              dipthongs... ]

                              > Vowel length is expressed by placing the vowels on a long carrier (I
                              > also use a long carrier in the case of ä, even though that's
                              >redundant).

                              [ That's because _ä_ is always long, I gather. ]


                              > The vowel tehtar are placed on the following consonants, but schwa
                              is expressed by a single dot under the preceding consonant since many
                              > words end with schwa. Consequently, syllabic /l m n r/ are spelled
                              > without preceding schwa unless it is clearly pronounced, in words
                              >like _kennen, stellen_ (of course, these are no syllabic consonants
                              >then).
                              >
                              > _ö_ might as well be represented with a double acute //.
                              >
                              > Dipththongs are represented with vala and anna combinations, of
                              course.
                              >
                              >
                              > Consonants:
                              > Plain general use with extended tyeller for affricates (though I'd
                              > admit I prefer calma for /tS/).

                              [ Ah, yes, as in the English modes. But then it wouldn't mesh so
                              nicely with the spellings of _pf_ and _z_ (/ts/), which I gather
                              would be extended parma/tinco in your mode, correct? And _tS_ would
                              in fact be extended calma (and, in the fricative tyelle, _sch_ (/S/)
                              harma and _ch_ (/x/) hwesta, I presume). ]


                              > Óre is used for vocalized _r_. Since I prefer a transcription where
                              > vocalisation of _r_ occurs only after long vowels (and of course in
                              > syllabic _r_), I don't mark vowel length before óre, so I transcribe
                              > _wir_ /vi:r/ [vi:6] with single dot on óre, but no long carrier, and
                              > _wirr_ /vIr/ [vIR] with single dot on rómen.

                              [ I think this roughly corresponds to Thalmann's mode, though he
                              doesn't think it absolutely necessary to make a distinction between
                              short and long vowels to begin with, if I understand correctly.
                              Otherwise, he also applies the "r-rule", i.e. vocalic _r_ as oore,
                              consonantal _r_ as roomen. He quotes the examples _Verein_/_bereit_.

                              For double _r_ (as in _wirr_) he proposes to use arda (and alda for
                              _ll_, aaze nuquerna for _ss_), but I don't really see the need for
                              these unattested (at least in the case of _rr, ll_) spellings. For
                              _ll_, for example, why not use the tilde inside lambe. ]


                              > Vilya is used for glottal stop, but I don't mark it at the beginning
                              > of a word. ... Now that I think about it, halla might also be
                              > considered for that purpose...

                              [ Ah! I thought the glottal stop in German wasn't "phonemic" at all,
                              but only occuring as an inserted element (in multi-morphemic words)
                              before morphemes that begin with a vowel, as between _e_ and _a_ in
                              _Beamter_. My point being, is it even necessary to represent this in
                              writing at all? And--excuse me for asking what may very well be a
                              stupid question--where does the glottal stop occur at the beginning
                              of a word? Maybe in something like _Sieh an_? Just curious... ]


                              > Orthographic mode:
                              > Mostly the same.
                              >
                              > I usually express both the doubling of vowel letters and the
                              > combination of vowel letter + 'lengthening _h_' by the long carrier,
                              > though the latter might as well be represented by plain hyarmen
                              > (indeed, this is more advantageous for words like _Rehe_).

                              [ Indeed! Though confusion probably wouldn't be possible in this
                              example, since I don't think there's a word called _ree_--but there
                              may be other instances where problems would arise? ]


                              > I've started to express _ie_ by single dot on stemless calma.
                              >
                              > The dot below is only used for final _e_.
                              >
                              > _y_ is represented by the breve accent.

                              [ This would be an orthographic spelling indeed, then, as in
                              Tolkien's orthographic English modes that also show this usage
                              (outside diphthongal combinations such as in _day_ which are spelled
                              with anna). I believe _y_ is quite a rare letter in German, but can
                              yet stand for a variety of sounds (_Ypsilon, Yak, Yvonne_). ]


                              > I prefer to distinguish _v_ and _w_, using ampa for the former, vala
                              > for the latter (or the sign for following _w_).

                              [ Again, orthographic indeed (and also based on English modes), since
                              German _w_ really corresponds to English _v_, while German _v_ is
                              either the same as English _v_ OR the same as _f_ (as in _Verein_),
                              while English _w_ doesn't even occur in German. ]


                              > Silme and esse are used for _s_ and _ss/ß_, not for /s/ and /z/.

                              [ Though it would be nice, at least in phonetic spelling, to
                              distinguish /s/ (_fest_) and /z/ (_Sand_), and in phonetic spelling
                              no extra sign would then be needed for _ss/ß_, since that's
                              always /s/, right? ;) ]


                              > Double consonant letters are expressed by the bar below, though I
                              > sometimes use alda for _ll_ (also because most computer fonts don't
                              > allow for a bar to be placed below alda).

                              [ You mean, they don't allow for a bar below lambe, is it? Hm, I
                              think that was also one of the reasons why Thalmann proposed alda for
                              double _l_.
                              I'm out of my depth here, but how come a frequently attested spelling
                              such as a tilde inside lambe (as it is, for example in Namaarie--I
                              don't think Tolkien himself ever actually put the tilde _under_
                              lambe) is not available in most computer fonts as you say?
                              Remarkable. ]

                              Hisilome
                            • j_mach_wust
                              ... I d rather agree with Hisilome on this point. German is, like English or Swedish, a language that does not have one single standard form and pronunciation,
                              Message 14 of 25 , Apr 9, 2006
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                                Melroch 'Aestan wrote:
                                >
                                > hisilome skrev:
                                >
                                > > [ Ah! I thought the glottal stop in German wasn't "phonemic" at
                                > > all, but only occuring as an inserted element (in multi-morphemic
                                > > words) before morphemes that begin with a vowel, as between _e_
                                > > and _a_ in _Beamter_. My point being, is it even necessary to
                                > > represent this in writing at all? And--excuse me for asking what
                                > > may very well be a stupid question--where does the glottal stop
                                > > occur at the beginning of a word? Maybe in something like _Sieh
                                > > an_? Just curious... ]
                                >
                                > We discussed this on Conlang list not so long ago,
                                > and concluded that any prefix or root which begins
                                > in a vowel in the orthography begins in a phonemic
                                > glottal stop -- even when preceded by a consonant,
                                > thus _unabh�ngig_ is /'?un?aphENIC/, and _Verein_
                                > is /fEr'?ain/ though actual realization in rapid
                                > speach may vary. My German L1 mother anyway insisted
                                > that _Verein_ be [fE6'?aen], not [fE'raen] as I
                                > would have it!
                                > (Transcription as usual CXS: <http://www.theiling.de/ipa/>)

                                I'd rather agree with Hisilome on this point. German is, like English
                                or Swedish, a language that does not have one single standard form and
                                pronunciation, but different standards varying regionally (unlike
                                English or Swedish, this has only been recognized by linguistics very
                                recently, mainly over the past ten years). The glottal stop seems to
                                be typical for the standard German of Germany, while in Austria and
                                Switzerland it is only seldom realized and many speakers don't use it
                                at all (in standard German, that is, not in the dialect). Therefore,
                                I'd rather not consider it a phoneme.



                                ---------------------------


                                Hisilome wrote:
                                > [ Exactly what I had expected after the last few posts! Except maybe
                                > for _ö_, but you allow for the possibility of using the double acute
                                > (in analogy to the spelling of _ü_) further down.

                                After the last posts with Benct, I'd also recommend the doubled acute,
                                not the grave accent.

                                > _ä_ is always long, I gather. ]

                                Phonemic _ä_ is; orthographic _ä_ may be long or short, but the short
                                _ä_ is homophonous with short _e_.

                                > and _ch_ (/x/) hwesta, I presume). ]

                                Certainly. I forgot to mention I sometimes use hyarmen in the phonemic
                                mode for palatal _ch_. I usually don't put the two dots below, since
                                it can hardly ever be confused with _h_ which occurs only initially.

                                > For double _r_ (as in _wirr_) he proposes to use arda (and alda for
                                > _ll_, aaze nuquerna for _ss_), but I don't really see the need for
                                > these unattested (at least in the case of _rr, ll_) spellings. For
                                > _ll_, for example, why not use the tilde inside lambe. ]

                                Alda is attested for _ll_, though only in full writing, but in
                                'general use' style full writing. I don't remember whether it was in
                                one of the King's Letters or in the Mazarbul inscriptions. Arda,
                                however, is not attested for _rr_.

                                > > I usually express both the doubling of vowel letters and the
                                > > combination of vowel letter + 'lengthening _h_' by the long
                                > > carrier, though the latter might as well be represented by plain
                                > > hyarmen (indeed, this is more advantageous for words like _Rehe_).
                                >
                                > [ Indeed! Though confusion probably wouldn't be possible in this
                                > example, since I don't think there's a word called _ree_--but there
                                > may be other instances where problems would arise? ]

                                It's not because of confusion that hyarmen would be more advantageous
                                in _Rehe_; just try to spell the _eh_ with a long carrier and then put
                                a dot for the final _-e_ below! An isolated short carrier with a dot
                                below would be possible, but I dislike it (and it is not attested). In
                                a phonemic mode, I sometimes use an ephentetic anna in such cases (or
                                vala after _u, o_), which is as far as I know a similar solution to be
                                found as well in Arabic orthography.

                                > [ Though it would be nice, at least in phonetic spelling, to
                                > distinguish /s/ (_fest_) and /z/ (_Sand_), and in phonetic spelling
                                > no extra sign would then be needed for _ss/ß_, since that's
                                > always /s/, right? ;) ]

                                Exactly, and so I do in phonemic modes (even though there are
                                varieties of standard German which in this respect are more similar to
                                the spelling and distinguish /s/ and /ss/, not /z/ and /s/).

                                > > Double consonant letters are expressed by the bar below, though I
                                > > sometimes use alda for _ll_ (also because most computer fonts
                                > > don't allow for a bar to be placed below alda).
                                >
                                > [ You mean, they don't allow for a bar below lambe, is it? Hm, I
                                > think that was also one of the reasons why Thalmann proposed alda
                                > for double _l_.
                                > I'm out of my depth here, but how come a frequently attested
                                > spelling such as a tilde inside lambe (as it is, for example in
                                > Namaarie--I don't think Tolkien himself ever actually put the tilde
                                > _under_ lambe) is not available in most computer fonts as you say?
                                > Remarkable. ]

                                I'm sorry; of course the computer fonts provide a special bar to be
                                placed inside lambe. They don't have a bar that could be placed below
                                alda, but that was totally besides the point, since the possible
                                spellings are either lambe with bar (widely attested) or alda
                                (scarcely attested).


                                ---------------------------
                                j. 'mach' wust
                                http://machhezan.tripod.com
                                ---------------------------
                              • j_mach_wust
                                ... That also sounds reasonable. ... That s a pretty system! What is /9-/? ... Is consonant gemination considered to be mere consonant length in Swedish
                                Message 15 of 25 , Apr 9, 2006
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                                  Melroch 'Aestan wrote:
                                  > Since back vowels tend to get more rounded the
                                  > higher they are it might be a good idea to use
                                  > (( = /o/ and ( = /O/: doubling would then indicate
                                  > relatively greater rounding. That way you can still
                                  > -- tenuously -- preserve consistency in the use of
                                  > the doubling modification.

                                  That also sounds reasonable.

                                  > Also should it come to expressing my native dialect
                                  > there would be three extra vowel phonemes to consider.
                                  > I would express these like this:
                                  >
                                  > i /i/ = . y /y/ = .. u /u\/ = (( o /u/ = ))
                                  > e /e/ = / ö /2/ = // û /8/ = ( å /o/ = )
                                  > ä /E/ = \
                                  > â /a/ = v /ô/ /9-/ = \\ a /A/ = ^

                                  That's a pretty system! What is /9-/?

                                  > (I'm anyway ignoring the fact that long /A/ is [Q:]!
                                  > Length is not phonemic in Swedish, the rule basically
                                  > being that a stressed vowel is long if not followed
                                  > by a consonant cluster or a geminate consonant. Still
                                  > people tend to hear phonetic vowel length better than
                                  > phonetic consonant length, so the question about length
                                  > is a bit vexed both in phonology and in Tengwar writing...)

                                  Is consonant gemination considered to be mere consonant length in
                                  Swedish phonology? Traditionally, the Alemannic consonant length is
                                  considered to be a secondary feature of the fortis-lenis opposition,
                                  but it is debated whether there are other features to that opposition.

                                  > AFAIK the use
                                  > of . for _i_ and / for _e_ is a CJRT usage,

                                  It's attested in DTS 10, after all one of the two major English tehtar
                                  mode samples.

                                  > If having to distinguish two levels of i-vowels
                                  > I'd prefer using the caret tehta for /Y/ and double
                                  > it (vertically) for /y/ -- and of course . = /I/
                                  > and .. = /i/.

                                  I prefer to keep the attested symmetry between unrounded front vowel =
                                  . and corresponding rounded front vowel = ..

                                  > in a language like Icelandic, where older
                                  > /Q/ has become /9/, you almost have to use the W-tehta for
                                  > that phoneme, if you are going to use the same mode for both
                                  > the old and the new language (which anyway is possible only
                                  > because the orthography is archaizing...)

                                  Wouldn't the usual (and attested) distinction between a phonemic and
                                  an orthographic mode work for Icelandic as well (the latter allowing a
                                  fair representation of Old Icelandic) and make the use of the modified
                                  left curl dispensable?

                                  > Do you have any particular
                                  > reason for choosing the analysis /wj/ over /jw/? I guess it
                                  > would matter only word-initially. My hunch is that initial /j/
                                  > is much more common than initial /w/ in French (I can only really
                                  > think of _oui_) but I guess that whatever you use for initial /w/
                                  > with a .. below looks better than Anna with a W-tehta above.

                                  That's the reason.

                                  > What do you use for initial /w/ BTW. I guess Úre or Vala.

                                  Úre is not attested for initial /w/ in tehtar modes, but only as a
                                  "reading direction inverter" (as in Quenya). So I'd certainly use vala.


                                  ---------------------------
                                  j. 'mach' wust
                                  http://machhezan.tripod.com
                                  ---------------------------
                                • Melroch 'Aestan
                                  ... Well, traditionally it s identified as an open rounded front vowel -- [9] or even [& ] -- but in my pronunciation it certainly is a low mid rounded
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Apr 9, 2006
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                                    j_mach_wust skrev:

                                    >>Also should it come to expressing my native dialect
                                    >>there would be three extra vowel phonemes to consider.
                                    >>I would express these like this:
                                    >>
                                    >>i /i/ = . y /y/ = .. u /u\/ = (( o /u/ = ))
                                    >>e /e/ = / ö /2/ = // û /8/ = ( å /o/ = )
                                    >>ä /E/ = \
                                    >>â /a/ = v /ô/ /9-/ = \\ a /A/ = ^
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > That's a pretty system! What is /9-/?

                                    Well, traditionally it's identified as an
                                    open rounded front vowel -- [9] or even [&\] --
                                    but in my pronunciation it certainly is a
                                    low mid rounded *central* vowel [3\], so
                                    I notated it as a retracted front vowel.
                                    I also put it one row too low for some reason...

                                    >>(I'm anyway ignoring the fact that long /A/ is [Q:]!
                                    >>Length is not phonemic in Swedish, the rule basically
                                    >>being that a stressed vowel is long if not followed
                                    >>by a consonant cluster or a geminate consonant. Still
                                    >>people tend to hear phonetic vowel length better than
                                    >>phonetic consonant length, so the question about length
                                    >>is a bit vexed both in phonology and in Tengwar writing...)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Is consonant gemination considered to be mere consonant length in
                                    > Swedish phonology? Traditionally, the Alemannic consonant length is
                                    > considered to be a secondary feature of the fortis-lenis opposition,
                                    > but it is debated whether there are other features to that opposition.

                                    Yes consonant gemination is just consonant length in Swedish.

                                    >>AFAIK the use
                                    >>of . for _i_ and / for _e_ is a CJRT usage,
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > It's attested in DTS 10, after all one of the two major English tehtar
                                    > mode samples.

                                    Ah, OK.

                                    >>in a language like Icelandic, where older
                                    >>/Q/ has become /9/, you almost have to use the W-tehta for
                                    >>that phoneme, if you are going to use the same mode for both
                                    >>the old and the new language (which anyway is possible only
                                    >>because the orthography is archaizing...)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Wouldn't the usual (and attested) distinction between a phonemic and
                                    > an orthographic mode work for Icelandic as well (the latter allowing a
                                    > fair representation of Old Icelandic) and make the use of the modified
                                    > left curl dispensable?

                                    Sure, but the point is that you would want to be able
                                    to use the same orthographic mode both for the old and
                                    the new language. It would feel very weird otherwise.
                                    Anyway my usage is to represent _v_ with Vala in all
                                    positions. I guess anyone who wants can use \ for _ö_
                                    and W-tehta for _v_ after consonants, but I don't.

                                    >>Do you have any particular
                                    >>reason for choosing the analysis /wj/ over /jw/? I guess it
                                    >>would matter only word-initially. My hunch is that initial /j/
                                    >>is much more common than initial /w/ in French (I can only really
                                    >>think of _oui_) but I guess that whatever you use for initial /w/
                                    >>with a .. below looks better than Anna with a W-tehta above.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > That's the reason.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >>What do you use for initial /w/ BTW. I guess Úre or Vala.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Úre is not attested for initial /w/ in tehtar modes, but only as a
                                    > "reading direction inverter" (as in Quenya). So I'd certainly use vala.
                                    >

                                    I thought so.

                                    --

                                    /BP 8^)>
                                    --
                                    Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
                                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                                    A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
                                    __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
                                    \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
                                    / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
                                    / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
                                    /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
                                    Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
                                    ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
                                    || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
                                  • hisilome
                                    ... [ I think your mother s realization corresponds more closely to Thalmann s, who also has the glottal stop in _Verein_. Thalmann says that _Verein_ is
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Apr 9, 2006
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                                      Melroch 'Aestan wrote:

                                      > > hisilome skrev:
                                      > >
                                      >Ah! I thought the glottal stop in German wasn't "phonemic" at
                                      >all, but only occuring as an inserted element (in multi-morphemic
                                      >words) before morphemes that begin with a vowel, as between _e_ and
                                      >_a_ in _Beamter_. My point being, is it even necessary to
                                      >represent this in writing at all?

                                      >We discussed this on Conlang list not so long ago,
                                      >and concluded that any prefix or root which begins
                                      >in a vowel in the orthography begins in a phonemic
                                      >glottal stop -- even when preceded by a consonant...
                                      >My German L1 mother anyway insisted that _Verein_ be [fE6'?aen],
                                      >not [fE'raen] as I would have it!

                                      and j_mach_wust replied:

                                      >The glottal stop seems to be typical for the standard German of
                                      >Germany, while in Austria and Switzerland it is only seldom realized
                                      >and many speakers don't use it at all (in standard German, that is,
                                      >not in the dialect). Therefore, I'd rather not consider it a phoneme.

                                      [ I think your mother's realization corresponds more closely to
                                      Thalmann's, who also has the glottal stop in _Verein_. Thalmann says
                                      that _Verein_ is _Ver-ein_, but _bereit_ is _be-reit_, i.e. in the
                                      latter case the _r_ is syllable-initial and thus pronounced
                                      differently.
                                      While I think that _bereit_ is practically never realized as _ber-
                                      eit_, in the case of _Verein_, the realization _Ve-rein_ is also
                                      possible (and I think this would correspond to what 'Mach' means when
                                      he says that in some variants of High [Standard] German [and I
                                      believe not just in Austria and Switzerland, but also in some
                                      regions/speakers in Germany, espcially in the south] the glottal stop
                                      would not be realized).
                                      Thalmann doesn't introduce a separate sign for the glottal stop.
                                      Where _r_ is involved, he simply uses oore for syllable-final _r_
                                      (regardless of whether it's followed by a vowel/glottal stop or a
                                      consonant), and roomen for syllable-initial/medial _r_, which is
                                      always pre-vocalic (syllable-medial for example in _Christian_). ]


                                      Melroch 'Aestan wrote:

                                      >As for Christian Thalmann's mode it is obviously
                                      >*very* orthographic. I like it for the most part.

                                      [ Yes, I agree it is! And I don't think there's a problem with that
                                      (as you may remember, I'm actually quite partial to orthographic
                                      modes, no matter what the language). The only thing I'm really not so
                                      happy with (as I said) is that this mode uses basically the same
                                      method for representing the diphthongs and the umlauts. I think since
                                      umlauts are simple vowels, they should be spelled as such (and not
                                      like diphthongs) even in orthographic writing, which is why I prefer
                                      the solutions with inverted A-tehta/double acute/double over-dot for
                                      _ä, ö, ü_. ]

                                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------

                                      j_mach_wust wrote:

                                      > > and _ch_ (/x/) hwesta, I presume).
                                      >
                                      >Certainly. I forgot to mention I sometimes use hyarmen in the
                                      >phonemic mode for palatal _ch_. I usually don't put the two dots
                                      >below, since it can hardly ever be confused with _h_ which occurs
                                      >only initially.

                                      [ Hm. How about words like _gehabt, gehoben, verhören_, where the _h_
                                      is certainly pronounced (and not a sign of vowel lengthening)? But
                                      even then, confusion would probably rarely arise... ]


                                      > Alda is attested for _ll_, though only in full writing, but in
                                      > 'general use' style full writing. I don't remember whether it was in
                                      > one of the King's Letters or in the Mazarbul inscriptions.

                                      [ Ah, you're of course right: both DTS 13 (Mazarbul) in _Dimrill,
                                      shall_ (and, mistakenly, in the first occurrence of _hold_) and all
                                      three copies of the King's Letter have it (in _all_). Hm, so only
                                      arda for _rr_ is unattested...could warm up to this. Although in
                                      your proposal one wouldn't need it, since _rr_ occurs only after
                                      short vowels (=not vocalized) and is then spelled with roomen (as
                                      opposed to oore) anyway. ]


                                      > > > I usually express both the doubling of vowel letters and the
                                      > > > combination of vowel letter + 'lengthening _h_' by the long
                                      > > > carrier, though the latter might as well be represented by plain
                                      > > > hyarmen (indeed, this is more advantageous for words like
                                      _Rehe_).
                                      > >
                                      > > Indeed! Though confusion probably wouldn't be possible in this
                                      > > example, since I don't think there's a word called _ree_...

                                      >It's not because of confusion that hyarmen would be more
                                      >advantageous in _Rehe_; just try to spell the _eh_ with a long
                                      >carrier and then put a dot for the final _-e_ below! An isolated
                                      >short carrier with a dot below would be possible, but I dislike it
                                      (and it is not attested). In a phonemic mode, I sometimes use an
                                      >ephentetic anna in such cases (or vala after _u, o_), which is as
                                      >far as I know a similar solution to be found as well in Arabic
                                      >orthography.

                                      [ So, anna to lengthen _a, e, i_, and vala to lengthen _u, o_, do I
                                      understand you correctly here? Is that attested somewhere in
                                      Tolkien's modes (don't know any Arabic I'm afraid :()? Also, why call
                                      it "epenthetic"? Isn't that sort of an "added" sound in spoken
                                      language, while here we're dealing with an added _letter_ to express
                                      vowel length in writing? I'm no expert, mind you, but curious. ]


                                      > > Though it would be nice, at least in phonetic spelling, to
                                      > > distinguish /s/ (_fest_) and /z/ (_Sand_), and in phonetic
                                      spelling no extra sign would then be needed for _ss/ß_, since that's
                                      > > always /s/, right?
                                      >
                                      >Exactly, and so I do in phonemic modes (even though there are
                                      >varieties of standard German which in this respect are more similar
                                      >to the spelling and distinguish /s/ and /ss/, not /z/ and /s/).

                                      [ That's interesting! Even though this is drifting OT, I'd be curious
                                      to know which varieties these are (geographically speaking)? And what
                                      would this mean concretely: that one would pronounce the _s_ in
                                      _Sand_ and _fest_ identically (and this would have to be an unvoiced
                                      _s_ in both cases, right?), while discerning, say, _dass_
                                      (conjunction, i.e. _daß_) and _das_ (article) in pronuncation? Would
                                      the article then have a voiced _s_ (/z/)...? Sorry if I'm a bit slow
                                      here. :) ]

                                      Hisilome
                                    • j_mach_wust
                                      ... Especially since even a basic knowledge of German will be sufficient to recognize that _ge_ and _ver_ are typical prefixes. I d also spell _ge_ with a dot
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Apr 9, 2006
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                                        Hisilome wrote:
                                        > >I sometimes use hyarmen in the
                                        > >phonemic mode for palatal _ch_. I usually don't put the two dots
                                        > >below, since it can hardly ever be confused with _h_ which occurs
                                        > >only initially.
                                        >
                                        > [ Hm. How about words like _gehabt, gehoben, verh�ren_, where the
                                        > _h_ is certainly pronounced (and not a sign of vowel lengthening)?
                                        > But even then, confusion would probably rarely arise... ]

                                        Especially since even a basic knowledge of German will be sufficient
                                        to recognize that _ge_ and _ver_ are typical prefixes. I'd also spell
                                        _ge_ with a dot below ungwe and _ver_ with formen + óre, so it'd be
                                        even more obvious that it's prefixes.

                                        > so only
                                        > arda for _rr_ is unattested...could warm up to this. Although in
                                        > your proposal one wouldn't need it, since _rr_ occurs only after
                                        > short vowels (=not vocalized) and is then spelled with roomen (as
                                        > opposed to oore) anyway. ]

                                        In the orthographic proposal of mine, however, a doubled _rr_ would be
                                        necessary, but I haven't ever thought much about it. I think I
                                        wouldn't use arda because it isn't attested at all. Maybe I'd use óre
                                        with a bar below, since a bar below rómen would be awkward to me and
                                        since a doubled _rr_ in one way is always at the end of a syllable
                                        (but also at the beginning of the next syllable).

                                        > [ So, anna to lengthen _a, e, i_, and vala to lengthen _u, o_, do I
                                        > understand you correctly here? Is that attested somewhere in
                                        > Tolkien's modes (don't know any Arabic I'm afraid :()? Also, why
                                        > call it "epenthetic"? Isn't that sort of an "added" sound in spoken
                                        > language, while here we're dealing with an added _letter_ to express
                                        > vowel length in writing? I'm no expert, mind you, but curious. ]

                                        I wouldn't use anna and vala to lengthen the vowels. I'd lengthen them
                                        in the normal way with the long carrier. I'd only use vala/anna as a
                                        kind of "carrier" for a following schwa, because I'd rather not write
                                        a short carrier with a dot below. And I've called it "epenthetic"
                                        because the reason why I'd use these letters is the assumption that
                                        _Rehe_ /re:@/ is really pronounced [re:j@], with a epenthetic [j] in
                                        the hiatus.

                                        > >(even though there are
                                        > >varieties of standard German which in this respect are more similar
                                        > >to the spelling and distinguish /s/ and /ss/, not /z/ and /s/).
                                        >
                                        > [ That's interesting! Even though this is drifting OT, I'd be
                                        > curious to know which varieties these are (geographically speaking)?
                                        > And what would this mean concretely: that one would pronounce the
                                        > _s_ in _Sand_ and _fest_ identically (and this would have to be an
                                        > unvoiced _s_ in both cases, right?), while discerning, say, _dass_
                                        > (conjunction, i.e. _da�_) and _das_ (article) in pronuncation? Would
                                        > the article then have a voiced _s_ (/z/)...? Sorry if I'm a bit slow
                                        > here. :) ]

                                        At least all of Austro-Bavarian and Alemannic-Swabian dialects are
                                        said not to have any voiced obstruents at all (except for /v/, but
                                        that's a special case), and neither have the varieties of standard
                                        German in the same regions, that is to say, in much of Southern
                                        Germany and in all of Switzerland and Austria (except for a border
                                        region with Slovenia).

                                        Since most of these regions, as far as I know, have terminal devoicing
                                        (note that "devoicing" must not be understood literally in this case,
                                        since there is no voice in the first place, but the term is still
                                        used; it means just that the opposition is neutralized at the ends of
                                        words), the opposition between _s_ and _ss_ exists only within a word
                                        between voiced sounds, for instance in _reisen_ vs. _reissen_.

                                        It is debated what makes the difference. The traditional point of view
                                        is that the main feature of that opposition is a fortis-lenis
                                        distinction, though others say the main feature is a length
                                        distinction. If I remember correctly, the length difference can be
                                        measured, but the force difference can't, as far as I know. The
                                        traditional way of transcribing the opposition is with [s] vs. [z_0]
                                        (voiceless [z]). This may seem strange to someone who supposes that
                                        it's the voice that differentiates [s] from [z], and that a voiceless
                                        [z] would be the same as an [s]; in the traditional use in German
                                        linguistics, however, there's more to that differentiation than just
                                        voice, but as I said, the nature of that "more" is debated.

                                        I don't know whether the initial opposition heard in Germany between
                                        _Sex_ /sEks/ 'sex' (an English loanword) and _sechs_ /zEks/ 'six' is
                                        also made in areas that don't have voiced [z]. I'd say it would be
                                        perfectly possible, but I could also figure that this initial
                                        distinction is only made in areas that have voiced [z] since in
                                        Switzerland, at least, it is not made. At least in Switzerland, on the
                                        other hand, there is no terminal devoicing, so pairs like _Reis_
                                        'rice' and _reiss_ 'rip (imperative singular)' are not homophonous.
                                        Nonetheless, 'das' and 'dass' are perfectly homophonous, just like
                                        they are etymologically identical. Their differenciation is just
                                        made-up (surely an invention of cruel teachers to annoy their students).


                                        ---------------------------
                                        j. 'mach' wust
                                        http://machhezan.tripod.com
                                        ---------------------------
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