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Re: "iu" and "ui" alternative spellings [was: Chin. Mode: No "-io", but "-io-"]

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  • hisilome
    ... [ Right! Only gave that section a cursory glance and missed it... So that s basically the sound (as in _mirrOR, teachER_, etc), though with a more guttural
    Message 1 of 33 , Mar 18, 2006
      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Melroch 'Aestan <melroch@...> wrote:

      > I use [@`] -- "commercial at" followed by a grave accent/opening
      >quote to represent Unicode ɚ LATIN SMALL LETTER SCHWA WITH HOOK.
      >You can see it as example of the "Rhoticity" diacritic at

      > <http://www.theiling.de/ipa/#overview-dia>

      [ Right! Only gave that section a cursory glance and missed it...
      So that's basically the sound (as in _mirrOR, teachER_, etc), though
      with a more guttural and forceful pronuncation, that I also
      considered to be the best description of _-r_. ]

      > Certainly more than two different _r_s would be overkill.

      [ Yeah, my feeling too. I'm still partial to using anca (_r-_) and
      oore (_-r_), but I wouldn't have a problem with roomen and oore,
      either (and I quite like the shape of roomen :)). ]

      In designing writing systems for non-native languages one must guard
      >against the tendency to get distracted by sub-
      >phonemic "distinctions".

      [ Well, one could see this as an argument for orthographic
      representation. ;)
      And that's probably why Pinyin has only one sign, _r_, for these
      sounds oscillating between rhotic/fricative. So using only one tengwa
      (anca or roomen or oore, though I'd somehow prefer the first) would
      also be acceptable I think. ]

      > For example I can hear three different >realizations of the English
      >vowel in STRUT but any native speaker would of course find it absurd
      >to distinguish them. It is even very probable that my tendency to
      >hear this vowel >as rounded in certain contexts is due to my native
      >Swedish accent, >which has a /3\/ phoneme, leading me astray.

      [ Couldn't agree more! English vowels are messy. So many slightly
      different pronuncations (what you call sub-phonemic distinctions) for
      virtually all of them (even just among native speakers from different
      areas/backgrounds, let alone the different realizations non-native
      speakers may produce)... Not like Italian, Dutch or German, where
      vowel pronuncation seems to display much less variation!
      Part of the reason has to be that English is spoken in so many
      countries and across vast geographical areas (be it as
      native/official/second language)--though this could also be said for
      Spanish, yet I'm not sure we see the same amount of variation in that
      language (how different is, say, Mexican from South American Spanish?
      or from "Spanish" Spanish? how much variation do we see within these

      Mandarin, in fact, shows a similar phenomenon across China/Chinese-
      speaking communities, partly because for many people it isn't really
      their native language, but only the first language learned apart
      from their mother tongue.
      A little bit like English in India: it's taught in schools and
      everybody has to learn it in principle, since it's the official
      language/lingua franca. But in fact, unless you grew up in northern
      China, your native tongue is likely to be a Chinese "dialect" (I
      think some scholars even dispute the use of that term for non-
      Mandarin varieties of Chinese, but this seems largely a matter of
      convention to me) that's very different from Mandarin. Let it be
      noted, though, that even among true native speakers of Mandarin there
      exists quite a bit of regional phonetic/tonal variety, i.e. you find
      lots of Mandarin "sub-dialects", spread across north and northeast

      Hm, all this reminds me: coming up with a tengwar mode for something
      like Cantonese or Fukienese (Minnan dialect) would be quite a
      challenge. The sound and tonal variations are truly mind-blowing to
      native speakers of non-tonal languages! It would certainly mean
      pushing the adaptability of the tengwar writing system to its very
      limits. ]

    • Melroch 'Aestan
      ... Mandarin was a typo for Cantonese here. Sorry. -- /BP 8^) -- Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
      Message 33 of 33 , Mar 19, 2006
        hisilome skrev:

        >>Duh, with six or seven tonemes Mandarin even stretches Roman to
        >>its limits!
        > [ Well, I'm no experts on linguistics (obviously!), so I may
        > misunderstand you here--but if "tonemes" are identical to tones,
        > standard Mandarin has four or five, and as far as I know some
        > subdialects of Mandarin have as little as three. Why six or seven? ]

        "Mandarin" was a typo for "Cantonese" here. Sorry.

        /BP 8^)>
        Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
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