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Re: "iu" and "ui" alternative spellings [was: Chin. Mode: No "-io", but "-io-"]

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  • hisilome
    ... Well, first of all, thanks for the enlightening links! Just one thing: I ve tried all kinds of encodings, but what you give as the X-Sampa/CXS
    Message 1 of 33 , Mar 18, 2006
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      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Melroch 'Aestan <melroch@...> wrote:

      > If you want to distinguish Mandarin
      > _r-_ from Mandarin _-r_ [@`] in Tengwar spelling the most natural
      > Tolkienian precedent would seem to be to use Ró­¥® for the one and
      > _Ó²e_ for the other; Tolkien's choice of symbolization was clearly
      >that these realizations of /r/ historically were [r\`] and [@`] in
      >English, and still are in conservative accents.

      Well, first of all, thanks for the enlightening links!

      Just one thing: I've tried all kinds of encodings, but what you give
      as the X-Sampa/CXS transcription of Mandarin _-r_ always displays
      as "commercial at"--and that can't be right, because I don't see that
      sign anywhere on the transcription key chart you also provided a link
      to. Am I right to assume that it should be [r\], the alveolar
      approximant, as I also suggested for _-r_, and that Pinyin "r" is
      thus suggested to be vacillating between [z`], [r`] and [r\`]?

      Didn't know that the latter was part of the historical sound
      repertory of English, but if so, then one might indeed consider
      using roomen and oore for _r-_ and _-r_. (I always adhered to Mach's
      distinction between "pronounced"/rhotic [roomen] and "dropped"/vowel
      [oore] "r"--hope I didn't misrepresent this...:))

      Then again, seeing that there seems to be more similarity than
      difference between _r-_ and _-r_ (i.e. they both potentially
      vacillate between more a more fricative or more rhotic quality),
      maybe one could even stick with the original scheme of expressing
      both with one sign, either anna, or anca, or roomen...or oore...

      I would still prefer to keep initial _r-_ in the third teema, though,
      with the unvoiced retroflex sounds _zh, ch, sh_. I feel that at least
      the syllabic _r_ (i.e. Pinyin _ri_) is pronounced very much
      like a fricative--in fact it seems rather difficult in this specific
      syllable to pronounce it otherwise. So, anca (pairing up with harma
      for Pinyin _sh_) still doesn't strike me as a bad solution...

      Where it combines with other sounds (as in _ran, rang, rao, re, ren,
      reng, rong, rou, ru, ruan, rui, run, ruo_), I agree that the
      distinction between a fricative and an approximant may become more
      blurred, but maybe it would be a bit much to introduce another sign
      for this, or we could end up with three tengwar for Pinyin "r": one
      for _ri_, one for _r + V (+ C)_, and one for _-r_...
      Or maybe yes: anca for _ri_, roomen for _r + V (+ C)_, and oore for _-

      Well, possibilities seem to abound!

    • Melroch 'Aestan
      ... Mandarin was a typo for Cantonese here. Sorry. -- /BP 8^) -- Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
      Message 33 of 33 , Mar 19, 2006
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        hisilome skrev:

        >>Duh, with six or seven tonemes Mandarin even stretches Roman to
        >>its limits!
        > [ Well, I'm no experts on linguistics (obviously!), so I may
        > misunderstand you here--but if "tonemes" are identical to tones,
        > standard Mandarin has four or five, and as far as I know some
        > subdialects of Mandarin have as little as three. Why six or seven? ]

        "Mandarin" was a typo for "Cantonese" here. Sorry.

        /BP 8^)>
        Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
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