Re: "iu" and "ui" alternative spellings [was: Chin. Mode: No "-io", but "-io-"]
- --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Melroch 'Aestan <melroch@...> wrote:
> If you want to distinguish MandarinWell, first of all, thanks for the enlightening links!
> _r-_ from Mandarin _-r_ [@`] in Tengwar spelling the most natural
> Tolkienian precedent would seem to be to use Ró¥® for the one and
> _Ó²e_ for the other; Tolkien's choice of symbolization was clearly
>that these realizations of /r/ historically were [r\`] and [@`] in
>English, and still are in conservative accents.
Just one thing: I've tried all kinds of encodings, but what you give
as the X-Sampa/CXS transcription of Mandarin _-r_ always displays
as "commercial at"--and that can't be right, because I don't see that
sign anywhere on the transcription key chart you also provided a link
to. Am I right to assume that it should be [r\], the alveolar
approximant, as I also suggested for _-r_, and that Pinyin "r" is
thus suggested to be vacillating between [z`], [r`] and [r\`]?
Didn't know that the latter was part of the historical sound
repertory of English, but if so, then one might indeed consider
using roomen and oore for _r-_ and _-r_. (I always adhered to Mach's
distinction between "pronounced"/rhotic [roomen] and "dropped"/vowel
[oore] "r"--hope I didn't misrepresent this...:))
Then again, seeing that there seems to be more similarity than
difference between _r-_ and _-r_ (i.e. they both potentially
vacillate between more a more fricative or more rhotic quality),
maybe one could even stick with the original scheme of expressing
both with one sign, either anna, or anca, or roomen...or oore...
I would still prefer to keep initial _r-_ in the third teema, though,
with the unvoiced retroflex sounds _zh, ch, sh_. I feel that at least
the syllabic _r_ (i.e. Pinyin _ri_) is pronounced very much
like a fricative--in fact it seems rather difficult in this specific
syllable to pronounce it otherwise. So, anca (pairing up with harma
for Pinyin _sh_) still doesn't strike me as a bad solution...
Where it combines with other sounds (as in _ran, rang, rao, re, ren,
reng, rong, rou, ru, ruan, rui, run, ruo_), I agree that the
distinction between a fricative and an approximant may become more
blurred, but maybe it would be a bit much to introduce another sign
for this, or we could end up with three tengwar for Pinyin "r": one
for _ri_, one for _r + V (+ C)_, and one for _-r_...
Or maybe yes: anca for _ri_, roomen for _r + V (+ C)_, and oore for _-
Well, possibilities seem to abound!
- hisilome skrev:
>"Mandarin" was a typo for "Cantonese" here. Sorry.
>>Duh, with six or seven tonemes Mandarin even stretches Roman to
> [ Well, I'm no experts on linguistics (obviously!), so I may
> misunderstand you here--but if "tonemes" are identical to tones,
> standard Mandarin has four or five, and as far as I know some
> subdialects of Mandarin have as little as three. Why six or seven? ]
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
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