Re: "iu" and "ui" alternative spellings [was: Chin. Mode: No "-io", but "-io-"]
- --- In email@example.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@...>
> > Initial _r_ would actually be a bit closer to your description as(the voiced counterpart of Mandarin _sh_), and thus somewhat similar
> > a "kind of sibilant", I think, since it's a retroflex fricative
to the sibilants _s_ and _z_ (alveolar unvoiced/voiced fricatives).
>[[ Oh yes, it certainly is! Just try to pronounce it yourself: roll
> Voiced counterpart of sh... wouldn't that claim for a transcription
> with anca? ... It might and it might not: On one hand, the doubling
> doesn't express voicing, but loss of aspiration, so this speaks
> against anca. On the other hand, "loss of aspiration" does not make
> any sense in a fricative, and also, there are no other voiced
> fricatives, so this does not speak againsta anca. So I think the
> question is, is this sound really that much a fricative that its
> relation to sh is obvious?
the tip of your tongue up against your palate, and then push the
air out like you would to pronounce any fricative, letting your vocal
chords vibrate as with any voiced sound. It's clearly _not_ a
semivowel (approximant), nor a trill, tap or flap.
The IPA chart confirms that _sh_ (right-tail "s") and _r-_
(right-tail "z") are counterparts (and there you'll also find a
detailed description of the voiced retroflex fricative and a sound
You may also find this site interesting:
Therefore, you are right, it would probably be better to represent it
by anca, rather than putting it in the "semi-vocalic" tyelle together
with _-r_ (if we don't use an "oore-hook"), _w-_ and _y-_.
Perhaps it's important to remember that Mandarin _sh_, being a
retroflex like _-r_, does thus not exactly correspond to the
English "sh" as in "shine" (the latter being a postalveolar [or
palato-alveolar--the terminology kills me :)] fricative. The
similarity is such, though, that using harma for Mandarin _sh_ is
alright, I believe.
By the same rationale, _r-_ is much more similar to the voiced
fricative sound in English "beige" than the alveolar semi-vowel "r".
It is perhaps unfortunate that the voiced retroflex fricative is
represented with an "r" at all in Pinyin, since it's not really what
you'd normaly call an "r-sound". Some other transcription systems
have used "j" for this sound (and "ch" for Pinyin _j_...), but I
don't know if that makes a big difference. All a matter of (to some
degree always arbitrary) definition. Anyway, one should think of _sh_
and _r-_ as something distinct from what these letters represent in
most European languages (but that goes for many Pinyin signs, of
course ;)). ]]
> So initial r- and final -r[[ No! That's why I wrote: ]]
> are quite different sounds. Is final -r also retroflex?
> > As for the _alveolar_ sound in _er_, I'd say that your silme-hook[[ and: ]]
>>might still work...
>this final _r_ is closer to the English frictionless continuant,[[ Guess the explanation in my previous mail got so lengthy as to be
>which is, I believe, "properly" represented by a _turned_ lower-
more confusing than anything else! Sorry... :)
So, Mandarin _-r_ is basically the same sound as English "r"
(alveolar approximant or semi-vowel), and thus using oore would
probably be the best solution for this sound (unless one prefers the
hook attached to the short carrier). ]]
- hisilome skrev:
>"Mandarin" was a typo for "Cantonese" here. Sorry.
>>Duh, with six or seven tonemes Mandarin even stretches Roman to
> [ Well, I'm no experts on linguistics (obviously!), so I may
> misunderstand you here--but if "tonemes" are identical to tones,
> standard Mandarin has four or five, and as far as I know some
> subdialects of Mandarin have as little as three. Why six or seven? ]
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
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