Re: "iu" and "ui" alternative spellings [was: Chin. Mode: No "-io", but "-io-"]
- --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@...>
>words '*lüan' and 'lü'.
> > Hisilome wrote:
> > [Well, I'm impressed with what you two came up with! Certainly
> > _very_ economical in its use of diacritics.
> I'm not so sure about that considering the three tehtar
<<<Well yes, agreed, but both proposals (the one that let's the A-
tehtar stand and the one[s] that replace[s] them with long
carrier/halla/gasdil, the latter in combination with a short carrier
as "syllable onset sign" where required) obviously employ much fewer
diacritic signs ("fewer" referring here not so much to the total
number of diacritics used, but rather to the amount of _distinct_
diacritics): only four/max. five in the phonemic modes, as opposed to
seven in the orthographic mode.>>>
>And then, there's another problem: The omission of the<<<You write "for example", but isn't that really the _only_
> e-tehta leads to some ambigue spellings. For example, 'liao' might
>be read as 'lie ao'.
ambiguous spelling that would arise? At least I couldn't find
another, but maybe I missed one... :)>>>
>Hm, that ambiguity might be solved by always using a carrier in the<<<Hm. Which mode exactly are you referring to here?
>transcriptions of 'ai ao ei ou' -- and of course, it would disappear
>if every word had a tone diacritic (which isn't the case, is it?, or
>at least not in the proposed mode).
I seem to recall that in the original (orthographic) mode, we'd
agreed to use the same tonal signs as in Pinyin (placed under the
tengwa carrying the vowel tehta), which also implied leaving the
fifth tone unmarked (BTW, in "Bopomofo", or Zhuyin, it is marked by a
single dot to the left/on top of the syllable, depending on whether
you are writing from left to right or top to bottom--this certainly
wouldn't do, since it could be confused with the dots used for other
Thus, if we stick to not marking the fifth tone, theoretically there
might be some problems, but in actual usage, ambiguity would very
rarely arise. In fact, as I pointed out, I believe only your one
example, the syllable _liao_, could be problematic.*
In your last proposal (using gasdil for /a/) one could then use
a "syllable onset sign" for _ao_ (as a syllable) to avoid possible
confusion, while doing without it elsewhere. And that would include
_ei, ou, en, eng_--only for _e_ you'd need the carrier, since
otherwise you'd be left with a blank, wouldn't you? Hm, not quite:
one _might_ also want to use the carrier to distinguish _ou_ from _o_
(which is very rare, though, comprising only a few characters, all
interjections). Thus, uure alone = _o_, short carrier + uure = _ou_,
tengwa + uure = _-ou_.
Of course, the problem with _liao_ would disappear completely (even
if no carriers are used) when transcribing _ai, ao_ (as opposed to _-
ai, -[i]ao_) as halla/long carrier + yanta or uure respectively, as
you suggest in message #5197.
*Although, I can't readily think of a case in which _lie_ would be
followed by an _ao_ in the fifth tone in the actual language.
Since the fifth "light" tone (characterized by the lack of a marked
tonal quality) is less frequent than the other four, and mostly tends
to occur in certain syllables such as _zi, tou, qu, lai, shang, xia_
etc, leaving it unmarked would be fine for all practical purposes,
even if there were more potentially ambiguous syllables. Also, the
context would usually make clear what is meant.>>>
>Maybe the obligatory carrier is the best solution.<<<Well, not necessarily "obligatory", except maybe for _ao_ if spelt
with gasdil, and probably _ou_, see above.>>>
>...<<<Right! Maybe I should start looking into the whole fonts
> That version without any vowel tehtar really leaves the space above
> the tengwar to be used for tone signs. I imagine that normal
>ómatehtar signs might be used as tone signs, for instance the acute,
>grave, circumflex and caron tehtar. Like this, that Chinese mode can
>even be typed with existing tengwar fonts.
> However, there's the problem of the combination of the two dots<<<DTS 46 and 49, right. I somehow prefer to put the modified left-
>above with another tehta (combination of modified left curl with
>another teha above is attested).
curl on top and the other diacritic under it, as in the King's
Letter. Would the fonts allow that as well?>>>
>Perhaps it might be more practical to place the two dots below the(the dots may be placed on either side of it) and with the single dot
>letters in all cases, even in combination with the vertical stroke
>(resulting in three dots below), in order to avoid a combination of<<<Well, this is really a question of what one finds aesthetically
>the two dots above with another tehta above, -- especially in the
>case of words of the kind consonant + üan and consonant + ü, because
>these already have two tehtar above even without any tone tehta.
more pleasing, isn't it. As I've said before, I don't mind
somewhat "crowded" spellings, so putting a "tone tehta" on top of the
modified left-curl and the double-dot in, say, _quan_ wouldn't bother
me. :) What you suggest here is just as good, of course.
And I suspect the spellings with double-dots _below_ may be
advantageous when it comes to using computer fonts (I wouldn't know,
though--maybe combining single with double dots/double dots with
gasdil below a tengwa gives just as much trouble as the potential
three diacritics on top?)>>>
- hisilome skrev:
>"Mandarin" was a typo for "Cantonese" here. Sorry.
>>Duh, with six or seven tonemes Mandarin even stretches Roman to
> [ Well, I'm no experts on linguistics (obviously!), so I may
> misunderstand you here--but if "tonemes" are identical to tones,
> standard Mandarin has four or five, and as far as I know some
> subdialects of Mandarin have as little as three. Why six or seven? ]
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
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