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Re: "iu" and "ui" alternative spellings [was: Chin. Mode: No "-io", but "-io-"]

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  • j_mach_wust
    ... Don t forget about the /e/! If you re proposing to leave it as the predictable implied vowel (same as Quenya /a/), then it s nonetheless still present. The
    Message 1 of 33 , Mar 3, 2006
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      Benct Philip Jonsson Melroch wrote:
      > Some would indeed analyse _yi wu yu_ as /jej/ /wew/ /jew/, but I'm
      > not an adherent of the most radical "vowellless" anlysis of
      > Mandarin. I think one needs to acknowledge /i u a/ as underlying
      > vowels; it is only [e] and [o] which are predictable. I would say
      > that there is a potential 'vowel slot' that gets filled with
      > [e] or [o] when none of /i u a/ is present, so you still need
      > I and U tehtar!

      Don't forget about the /e/! If you're proposing to leave it as the
      predictable implied vowel (same as Quenya /a/), then it's nonetheless
      still present. The beauty of that wikipedia table I'm basing all these
      speculations on (here it is again:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin#Finals ) is precisely that it
      analyzes all mandarin finals as having either underlying vowel /a/,
      /e/ or none at all, in which case the semivowels become the syllabic
      element. And that vowelless analysis of 'yi wu' is different from the
      /jej wew jwew/ analysis, since it's rather a simple /j w jw/ analysis
      (which would produce [i u y]).

      Hisilome wrote:
      > Isn't it more accurate to describe
      > it as a palatalized _u_, which incidentally the orthographic
      > proposal with U-tehta on top of vilya (_yu_), or under-dots and
      > U-tehta on top of tengwa (_-ü_), reflects nicely?

      It certainly is. In my last proposal, I therefore proposed the
      phonemic transcription /jw/:

      yu: vilya with dot below and modified left-curl above
      lü: lambe with dot below and two dots above and modified left-curl above

      > Mach, I'm also not sure how exactly you would spell for example
      > _you_ and _yu_: "vilya with under-dot and modified left-curl on
      > top"; "vilya with under-dot and two overdots plus modified left-curl
      > on top", respectively?

      I wouldn't use any underdots except for final númen, for final nwalme
      and for /yi wu yu/. Especially in the case of underlying /e/ there
      must be no dot. (Just as with Quenyan /a/: If there is an /a/, then
      there is no dot.) So I'd use the following transcriptions:

      you: vilya, úre
      yu: vilya with dot below and modified left-curl above

      > And what spellings did you have in mind when earlier in your mail
      > you wrote: "But how to transcribe yu then? Like 'you' but with an
      > additional dot below?" (_you_ = vilya plus uure with under-dot; _yu_
      > = vilya with under-dot plus uure with under-dot??)

      Exactly! Here is a complete rendering of the wikipedia table:


      (There are also pdf and rtf versions in the same directory.)

      j. 'mach' wust
    • Melroch 'Aestan
      ... Mandarin was a typo for Cantonese here. Sorry. -- /BP 8^) -- Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
      Message 33 of 33 , Mar 19, 2006
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        hisilome skrev:

        >>Duh, with six or seven tonemes Mandarin even stretches Roman to
        >>its limits!
        > [ Well, I'm no experts on linguistics (obviously!), so I may
        > misunderstand you here--but if "tonemes" are identical to tones,
        > standard Mandarin has four or five, and as far as I know some
        > subdialects of Mandarin have as little as three. Why six or seven? ]

        "Mandarin" was a typo for "Cantonese" here. Sorry.

        /BP 8^)>
        Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
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