Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [elfscript] Re: "iu" and "ui" alternative spellings [was: Chin. Mode: No "-io", but "-io-"]

Expand Messages
  • Melroch 'Aestan
    ... Yes I think that s the way, because in Tengwar semivowels are usually written with different signs from syllabic vowels. The Mandarin triphthongs written
    Message 1 of 33 , Mar 2, 2006
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      hisilome skrev:
      > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Melroch 'Aestan <melroch@...> wrote:
      >
      >>IIRC Pinyin _-iu_ and _-ui_ are "shorthand spellings"
      >>for _-iou_ and _-uei_. Surely this should be reflected
      >>in Tengwar spelling.
      >
      >
      >
      > Although, as I also wrote in an earlier reply, the spellings of _-iu_
      > and _-ui_ as "I-tehta on uure" and "U-tehta on yanta" are perfectly
      > fine (and should probably be considered "standard") in our proposed
      > orthographic mode for Mandarin, I think (also in light of my
      > suggested alternative representations of _yi, yin, ying_ [message
      > 5167]) that as an alternative to the above spellings, a more phonetic
      > approach (reflecting their triphthongal nature) should also be
      > allowed for _-iu_ and _-ui_.
      >
      > Thus (applying the same rules as for _-iao_ and _-uai_), for example:
      >
      > diu (diou) = Ando with two under-dots + O-tehta on top of uure
      >
      > dui (duei) = Ando with modified left-curl on top + E-tehta on top of
      > yanta
      >
      > Thanks to Melroch for his reminder!
      >
      > Hisilome
      >

      Yes I think that's the way, because in Tengwar semivowels
      are usually written with different signs from syllabic
      vowels. The Mandarin triphthongs written _iu_ and _ui_
      in Pinyin are phonologically /jow/ and /wej/, i.e. the
      Pinyin spelling writes the semivowels but leaves the
      syllabic vowel implied! Thus it would be OK to write

      diu (diou) = Ando with two under-dots + uure

      dui (duei) = Ando with modified left-curl on top + yanta

      but no E-tehta or O-tehta should be involved. This
      would be truly analogous to the Pinyin spelling.

      In fact the E and O tehtar could be omitted in most cases, at
      least where there are Y or W tehtar. That wouldn't look
      good in Roman spelling, but is IMHO quite OK in Tengwar spelling.
      Only it goes against the Quenya precedent of omitting the
      A tehta, but arguably just as _a_ is the "default vowel"
      in Quenya, _e_ is the "default vowel" un Mandarin, and
      according to most phonologists _e_ and _o_ are actually
      allophones of a single mid vowel phoneme. Syllables like
      _bo, fo, mo_ are actually /bwe fwe mwe/: first the /e/
      becomes [o] because it stands after a /w/, then the [w]
      is deleted because it stands after a labial consonant.
      --

      /BP 8^)>
      --
      Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
      A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
      __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
      \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
      / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
      / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
      /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
      Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
      ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
      || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
      "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
    • Melroch 'Aestan
      ... Mandarin was a typo for Cantonese here. Sorry. -- /BP 8^) -- Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
      Message 33 of 33 , Mar 19, 2006
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        hisilome skrev:

        >
        >>Duh, with six or seven tonemes Mandarin even stretches Roman to
        >>its limits!
        >
        >
        > [ Well, I'm no experts on linguistics (obviously!), so I may
        > misunderstand you here--but if "tonemes" are identical to tones,
        > standard Mandarin has four or five, and as far as I know some
        > subdialects of Mandarin have as little as three. Why six or seven? ]

        "Mandarin" was a typo for "Cantonese" here. Sorry.
        --

        /BP 8^)>
        --
        Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
        A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
        __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
        \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
        / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
        / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
        /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
        Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
        ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
        || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
        "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.