Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Happy New Year Elf Script v3

Expand Messages
  • j_mach_wust
    ... I didn t know his tehtar proposal either. It s a pdf you can access at Ronald s site: http://www.geocities.com/otsoandor/ I like his analysis of English
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 1, 2006
      David J. Finnamore wrote:

      > Apparently, Kyrmse doesn't share
      > the opinion that we have insufficient knowledge to devise a usable
      > phonemic tehtar mode for English, since he bothered to propose one.

      Dave "Hisilome" replied:

      > <<<Where? I'm just curious. All I could find where phonemic and
      > orthographic _full_ modes...>>>

      I didn't know his tehtar proposal either. It's a pdf you can access at
      Ronald's site:

      http://www.geocities.com/otsoandor/

      I like his analysis of English "full writing" better than that proposal.

      ---------------------------
      j. 'mach' wust
      http://machhezan.tripod.com
      ---------------------------
    • Dave
      ... From: j_mach_wust To: Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 1:11 AM Subject: [elfscript] Re: Happy New Year
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 2, 2006
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@...>
        To: <elfscript@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 1:11 AM
        Subject: [elfscript] Re: Happy New Year Elf Script v3


        > David J. Finnamore wrote:
        >
        >> Apparently, Kyrmse doesn't share
        >> the opinion that we have insufficient knowledge to devise a usable
        >> phonemic tehtar mode for English, since he bothered to propose one.
        >
        > Dave "Hisilome" replied:
        >
        >> <<<Where? I'm just curious. All I could find where phonemic and
        >> orthographic _full_ modes...>>>
        >
        > I didn't know his tehtar proposal either. It's a pdf you can access at
        > Ronald's site:
        >
        > http://www.geocities.com/otsoandor/
        >
        > I like his analysis of English "full writing" better than that proposal.


        <<< I agree (and thanks for the link!). There's simply too little material
        to go on, especially for the usually more controversial vowels and
        diphthongs (and even for the -i/-y sound that was also at issue [where we do
        have a sample to guide us] Ronald Kyrmse chose a different option from the
        attested one).
        All in all, how many authentic (Tolkien) samples do we have for English
        orthographic tehta writing? There are the doodles from AI (illustration
        184/DTS 39), but apart from that?

        DTS 41 is maybe (?) also phonemic, but most of it is Latin. I remember
        reading some interesting speculation about the _buubls_ at the bottom
        (middle right) of the envelope, forget where though. If it really means
        "doodles", well, it would probably qualify as phonemic (u-tehta [not
        o-tehta] on long carrier to express the sound of English double "u", and
        assuming that "d" is misspelt as "b").
        As for Latin, it's more like Quenya and Sindarin in that the difference
        between phonemic and orthographic spelling wouldn't be so big to begin with,
        due to the much clearer and more consistent relationship between sound and
        spelling. Also, Latin vowels have (had...) a much more uniform pronuncation
        as far as we know, again more like Quenya. For the elven tongues at least,
        the distinction between phonemic/phonetic and orthographic spelling isn't at
        all meaningful, and for me that's part of the appeal of, say, the "classical
        Quenya mode". In Sindarin, we have the major distinction between tehta and
        full writing modes, but again, orthographic and phonemic spelling are
        basically one and the same.

        Personally, I also prefer to use tehta modes for orthographic English
        tengwar texts, and full modes for phonemic English tengwar texts. Maybe
        that's because this was also the way Tolkien seems to have preferred it,
        judging by the specimens we have. So if one wants to stick as closely to the
        "authentic" texts as possible, this is probably the way to go.

        Having said all that, I've followd the "development" of D. Finnamore's New
        Year message with interest, including your proposal for a phonemic tehta
        transcription. About the latter, I have only two little questions: what
        exactly are the two underdots for palatalization based on? Did I understand
        you correctly in message #5090 that this is just your extrapolation (from
        Quenya it would seem?), or did you (as so often) notice something I
        overlooked? (I wasn't sure when saying that "this is only my personal
        opinion" whether you were referring to the use of the underdots being
        optional, depending on the English "dialect", or to the use of underdots for
        palatalization _at all_ in English modes.)

        The other thing: the usage of the grave accent on silme nuquerna to spell
        the English word "us", is that based on DTS 41 mentioned above? More
        precisely, on the spelling of _kladiowl&s_?
        "&" = the sound that follows "l"--in your article on Tolkien's Phonetic
        English modes, you say that "this tehta represents the schwa-sound". (If we
        accept this, I guess it's a good representation of the "u" in "us", in
        particular when the word is pronounced lightly, i.e. doesn't receive
        particular stress, as would be the case in the text we're dealing with.)
        I gather you assume that Tolkien wrote the Latin words in this specimen as
        if pronouncing them in modern English. For "kladiowl&s" I might follow
        along. I'm less sure about "fatarum", for example. If that also were to
        represent modern English pronunciation, wouldn't we then expect the first
        "a" and the "u" to also be schwas? Same for the "e" in "scandens". And same
        doubts also apply to the "ab icursu..." (misspelt for "incursu"?) phrase.
        Well, just curious what your opinion is. Maybe Tolkien wasn't entirely
        consistent here. After all, it's just--doodles! :) >>>

        Greetings,

        Hisilome
      • j_mach_wust
        Dave Hisilome wrote: ... Måns list is quite useful: http://at.mansbjorkman.net/teng_general_english.htm#eng_phon As you ve said, I d however also include
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 2, 2006
          Dave "Hisilome" wrote:
          ...
          > All in all, how many authentic (Tolkien) samples do we have for
          > English orthographic tehta writing? There are the doodles from AI
          > (illustration 184/DTS 39), but apart from that?

          Måns' list is quite useful:

          http://at.mansbjorkman.net/teng_general_english.htm#eng_phon

          As you've said, I'd however also include DTS 41 as far as it clearly
          is written in English pronunciation, that is to say, at least the word
          "cladiolus" and maybe "boobles". By the way, it was David Salo who
          proposed the reading "doodles":

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/26566

          ...
          > For the elven tongues at least, the distinction
          > between phonemic/phonetic and orthographic spelling isn't at all
          > meaningful, and for me that's part of the appeal of, say, the
          > "classical Quenya mode".

          I guess you're only saying that because by comparison to English,
          there is very few distinction between phonemic and orthographic
          spelling in languages like Quenya, Sindarin or, for instance, Spanish.
          Nonetheless, we can clearly distinguish phonemic and orthographic
          transcriptions of such languages. In Quenya, we have for instance on
          one hand the theoretical claim that the s-sound that originally was þ
          (TH) is still written with súle (orthographic approach), but on the
          other hand, that s-sound is written with silme in the known tengwar
          texts (phonemic approach).

          ...
          > Personally, I also prefer to use tehta modes for orthographic
          > English tengwar texts, and full modes for phonemic English tengwar
          > texts. Maybe that's because this was also the way Tolkien seems to
          > have preferred it, judging by the specimens we have.

          I'm not so sure about that. There is little data. I thought that also
          in the orthographic modes, there are more samples of "full writing"
          than of tehtar modes.

          ...
          > what exactly are the two underdots for
          > palatalization based on? Did I understand you correctly in message
          > #5090 that this is just your extrapolation (from Quenya it would
          > seem?), or did you (as so often) notice something I overlooked? (I
          > wasn't sure when saying that "this is only my personal opinion"
          > whether you were referring to the use of the underdots being
          > optional, depending on the English "dialect", or to the use of
          > underdots for palatalization _at all_ in English modes.)

          It was my opinion about the indication of the palatalization in words
          such as "due", "new", "mute", "suit". Or, even more generally
          speaking, I was talking about which differences between the varieties
          of English I consider should be represented in a phonemic
          transcription and which shouldn't, similar to what I've tried to
          explain in the section "Some Thoughts on How to Spell Words" in the
          following pdf:

          http://machhezan.tripod.com/phonetic_tengwar_modes/treebeard_6dec2003.pdf

          > The other thing: the usage of the grave accent on silme nuquerna
          > to spell the English word "us", is that based on DTS 41 mentioned
          > above? More precisely, on the spelling of _kladiowl&s_?
          > "&" = the sound that follows "l"--in your article on Tolkien's
          > Phonetic English modes, you say that "this tehta represents the
          > schwa-sound". (If we accept this, I guess it's a good
          > representation of the "u" in "us", in particular when the word is
          > pronounced lightly, i.e. doesn't receive particular stress, as
          > would be the case in the text we're dealing with.)
          ...

          Exactly. Unfortunately, we don't have any sample of the (stressed)
          vowel of "nut" in a phonemic tehtar mode. We know that in phonemic
          "full writing", this sound wasn't represented in the same way as the
          (unstressed) schwa vowel (for instance in the last and the first
          syllable of "AmericA" or in "gladiolUs").

          Having another look at the sarati samples, I've found that the sample
          R22 is comparable to the phonemic tehtar modes because it also
          distinguishs two different uses of the dot according to its position
          (though it's not above-below but rather left-right). It is a quite a
          long text (I've counted 318 letters excluding the tehtar), and it has
          many occurences of the "nut" vowel, of initial schwa, of medial schwa,
          of syllabic N M L R analyzed as combinations with preceding schwa, and
          one occurence of the indefinite article "a", all represented by a
          single dot on the opposite side of the following letter. So based on
          R22, we could use a dot below the following tengwa.

          Unfortunately, R22 has no instance of a final schwa (except for the
          many occurences of the word "the" wich is however written as if it
          were "eth", so I don't think this can be a model for a transcription
          of other words with final schwa such as "Edna", "data", "etcetera"). A
          short carrier with a dot below might be used. However, I'm not so sure
          whether there should be any final short carriers at all in such a mode
          or whether tehtar modes allow carrier to be used in any other way than
          with a tehta above; it is certainly not attested.

          Another problem of using the dot below the following tengwa in
          accordance to R22 is that such a use can collide with two dots below
          being used for a following j. Consider for instance the phrase "a cute
          one" or the word "accuse". Here, the k-letter quesse would have both
          the two dots for the following j below and the single dot for the
          preceding schwa, that is, it would have three dots below. We might
          just not care and use three dots below anyway, or we might place the
          two dots for the following j above the tengwa since its position seems
          to be variable.

          I have now updated my phonemic transcription of David's greetings so
          they use the dot below:

          http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/j_mach_wust/haepi_njuu_jiir.png


          Anyway, I hope that in the next numbers of Parma Eldalamberon to be
          published we will finally find a phonemic tehtar mode with a sample of
          the "nut" vowel. I think this is not so improbable because I assume
          that Arden R. Smith has now published all of Tolkien's alphabets
          previous to the tengwar, so now it's time for the early tengwar documents.

          ---------------------------
          j. 'mach' wust
          http://machhezan.tripod.com
          ---------------------------
        • Dave
          ... From: j_mach_wust To: Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 10:27 PM Subject: [elfscript] Re: Happy New Year
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 2, 2006
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@...>
            To: <elfscript@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 10:27 PM
            Subject: [elfscript] Re: Happy New Year Elf Script v3

            j_mach_wust wrote:

            > All in all, how many authentic (Tolkien) samples do we have for
            > English orthographic tehta writing?

            Måns' list is quite useful:

            http://at.mansbjorkman.net/teng_general_english.htm#eng_phon

            <<< Right, I should have known to look there...still, even taking all those
            samples into account, it's not much to base a "mode" on. Thanks also for
            pointing me to the little discussion about "buubls"/"doodles". >>>


            ...I guess you're only saying that because by comparison to English,
            there is very few distinction between phonemic and orthographic
            spelling in languages like Quenya, Sindarin or, for instance, Spanish.
            Nonetheless, we can clearly distinguish phonemic and orthographic
            transcriptions of such languages. In Quenya, we have for instance on
            one hand the theoretical claim that the s-sound that originally was þ
            (TH) is still written with súle (orthographic approach), but on the
            other hand, that s-sound is written with silme in the known tengwar
            texts (phonemic approach).

            <<< Correct, but as you say, those instances are few and far between--part
            of the reason maybe being that Elvish, and Quenya in particular, was simply
            comparatively more resistant to change than mortal tongues (in addition to
            the TH/S issue, there's the X[maHta]/H complex [harma/aha/hyarmen], the ng/n
            issue [noldo/nuumen], and one could argue that the oore/roomen distinction
            is a phonemic element).
            On the other hand, Spanish or German are mortal tongues just as English, but
            it seems that they have a) proved a bit less susceptible to change and, more
            importantly, b) that probably more efforts at "updating" the orthography
            where made whenever it threatened to drift too far from actual
            pronunciation--though I'm by no means an expert on these issues. >>>

            ...
            > Personally, I also prefer to use tehta modes for orthographic
            > English tengwar texts, and full modes for phonemic English tengwar
            > texts. Maybe that's because this was also the way Tolkien seems to
            > have preferred it, judging by the specimens we have.

            I'm not so sure about that. There is little data. I thought that also
            in the orthographic modes, there are more samples of "full writing"
            than of tehtar modes.

            <<< Hm hoom. Let's see. Orthographic tehta modes (English): DTS 5 (well
            there's the spelling of "war", but by and large...), DTS 10 (Brogan
            greetings, second part), DTS 62. Orthographic full modes (English): DTS 36,
            37, 39, 47, 56, 58.
            Sure, there are more specimens for the latter, but if you look at the length
            of the specimens in question, you find that DTS 36 and 37 each contain nine
            words (and are largely indentical on top of that), 39 has 11 words (if you
            count _yomo knnatta_--I've seen this interpreted as _knyatt_ (Mellonath
            Daeron Index) or "knyatta", but doesn't the wavy line/bar on top indicate a
            preceding nasal in the general mode?? what's that all about...), DTS 47 has
            four words (five if you count the tengwar shorthand for "of the" as two
            words), DTS 56 (English part) consists of "JRR Tolkien", and 58 gives two
            different spellings each for "Imladrist" and "Rivendell". Total count, even
            if we're very generous: about fourty.
            As for the orthographic mode samples, togehter we have almost 70 words (and
            I suspect if we'd be counting tengwa letters, there'd also be more), not to
            mention the fact that all these samples, contain continuous text without
            repetitions.
            OK, it's not really as convincing as I thought :), but yet there seems to be
            a slant towards the orthographic tehta modes. As someone, I think it was you
            (I hope I'm not wrong) speculated here recently, this may have been a
            concession Tolkien made to the "general public" (DTS 5: title page of LotR;
            DTS 10: written for a young "fan"; DTS 62: a dedication--so yes, one could
            say that), and (in private) he really preferred full modes, even for
            orthographic writing. What's certain is that he seems to have preferred
            phonemic writing for English texts, and the by far the largest amount of
            such text was in full writing. >>>

            ...
            > what exactly are the two underdots for
            > palatalization based on?...

            It was my opinion about the indication of the palatalization in words
            such as "due", "new", "mute", "suit". Or, even more generally
            speaking, I was talking about which differences between the varieties
            of English I consider should be represented in a phonemic
            transcription and which shouldn't, similar to what I've tried to
            explain in the section "Some Thoughts on How to Spell Words" in the
            following pdf:

            http://machhezan.tripod.com/phonetic_tengwar_modes/treebeard_6dec2003.pdf

            <<< I'm quite familiar with that file. :) That's also where you write about
            that _kladiowl&s_ schwa, etc.
            What I was asking in a rather long-winded manner was simply: did Tolkien
            himself ever use the two underdots to indicate palatalization in any English
            tengwar text? I couldn't find any instance, but I thought maybe you had. I
            gather, though, that it's really "just" extrapolated from Quenya (?).
            BTW, I'd say "mute" is always palatalized, even in "US usage", while I agree
            that the others would often/usuallly not be. >>>


            > The other thing: the usage of the grave accent on silme nuquerna
            > to spell the English word "us", is that based on DTS 41 mentioned
            > above? More precisely, on the spelling of _kladiowl&s_?
            ...

            Exactly. Unfortunately, we don't have any sample of the (stressed)
            vowel of "nut" in a phonemic tehtar mode. We know that in phonemic
            "full writing", this sound wasn't represented in the same way as the
            (unstressed) schwa vowel (for instance in the last and the first
            syllable of "AmericA" or in "gladiolUs").

            <<< Ah, this is the really interesting part. The Walrus and the Carpenter...
            PE 13 has been sitting on my shelf for quite a while now, but I've failed to
            give it more than a cursory glance, though R22, with its continuous texts,
            did catch my attention. I'll have to give it a more careful reading. >>>

            ...
            So based on R22, we could use a dot below the following tengwa.

            <<< Quite daring extrapolation, really, but why not? So far, we don't have
            much else to go on for this particular point, it seems. >>>

            ...

            Another problem of using the dot below the following tengwa in
            accordance to R22 is that such a use can collide with two dots below
            being used for a following j.

            <<< Again, isn't this usage only attested in the "classical" Quenya mode?
            >>>

            Consider for instance the phrase "a cute
            one" or the word "accuse". Here, the k-letter quesse would have both
            the two dots for the following j below and the single dot for the
            preceding schwa, that is, it would have three dots below. We might
            just not care and use three dots below anyway, or we might place the
            two dots for the following j above the tengwa since its position seems
            to be variable.

            <<< Based on what concrete tengwar text samples? Yeah, too lazy/tired to go
            through all of them right now... >>>

            Greetings,

            Hisilome
          • j_mach_wust
            ... ... have you noticed that these are really... phonemic tehtar mode samples? (though in the case of DTS 36 and 37, it may be discussable) ... Yes, in DTS 23
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 2, 2006
              Dave "Hisilome" wrote:
              > <<< Hm hoom. Let's see. Orthographic tehta modes (English): DTS 5
              > (well there's the spelling of "war", but by and large...), DTS 10
              > (Brogan greetings, second part), DTS 62. Orthographic full modes
              > (English): DTS 36, 37, 39, 47, 56, 58.

              ... have you noticed that these are really... phonemic tehtar mode
              samples? (though in the case of DTS 36 and 37, it may be discussable)

              > did Tolkien
              > himself ever use the two underdots to indicate palatalization in any
              > English tengwar text? I couldn't find any instance, but I thought
              > maybe you had. I gather, though, that it's really "just"
              > extrapolated from Quenya (?).

              Yes, in DTS 23 (full writing) in the word "news". In DTS 39, we see
              the word "new" transcribed not with the two dots tehta above/below
              númen, but with noldo. However, this might work for /nj/, but not for
              /mj/ as in "mute". In that word, we'd still need a j-tehta.

              The use is basically based on the Quenya modes, that's true. However,
              the use of a tehta is in accordance with the representation of the
              combinations of consonant + /w/ with a tehta (in Sindarin and
              English), and more generally, I think the use of consonant + /w/ or
              /j/ is just a special case of the use of (any letter) + /w/ or /j/ as
              seen in the "full writing" diphthongs.

              That the position of the j-tehta is not fixed is based entirely on the
              Quenya samples: Within the text, that is to say, in combination with a
              letter that bears a vowel tehta above (like palatalized Quenya letters
              necessarily do), the j-tehta is placed below, but in combination with
              an isolated letter, the preferred position of the j-tehta is above
              (DTS 65, but I had the impression that this was already known from the
              description of the tyelpetéma; ah, here's some about that:
              <http://at.mansbjorkman.net/teng_names.htm#vaia>).

              ---------------------------
              j. 'mach' wust
              http://machhezan.tripod.com
              ---------------------------
            • Dave
              ... From: j_mach_wust To: Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 2:43 AM Subject: [elfscript] Re: Happy New Year
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 2, 2006
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@...>
                To: <elfscript@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 2:43 AM
                Subject: [elfscript] Re: Happy New Year Elf Script v3

                Dave "Hisilome" wrote:
                > <<< Hm hoom. Let's see. Orthographic tehta modes (English): DTS 5
                > (well there's the spelling of "war", but by and large...), DTS 10
                > (Brogan greetings, second part), DTS 62. Orthographic full modes
                > (English): DTS 36, 37, 39, 47, 56, 58.

                ... have you noticed that these are really... phonemic tehtar mode
                samples? (though in the case of DTS 36 and 37, it may be discussable)

                <<<Hmm. Yep. Guess it was too late. :) Like you say, though, DTS 36/37 seem
                to be "sitting on the fence". Well, but that makes the case even more
                compelling in favour of orthographic _tehta_ as opposed to orthographic
                _full_ modes. I still fail to see how you can say then that "I thought that
                also in the [English]orthographic modes, there are more samples of 'full
                writing' than of tehtar modes"? Which samples are you referring to?

                And on a rather unrelated note, what is your reading of the _knnatta_ in DTS
                41? Why would one see it transcribed as _knyatt_ (Mellonath Daeron DTS
                Index: where's the final "a"? why a "y" instead of double "n"?) or _knyatta_
                (McKay's ISS I think, again: where does the "y" come from?)--minor point
                maybe, just occured strange to me that two sources would both see a "y"
                where I only see a wavy line, which should indicate a preceding nasal
                (?)...the DTS Index speculates this could be referring "to the Kenyan leader
                Yomo Kenyatta". Fair enough, but the transcription of what Tolkien actually
                wrote should be _knnatta_, should it not? >>>


                > did Tolkien
                > himself ever use the two underdots to indicate palatalization in any
                > English tengwar text? I couldn't find any instance, but I thought
                > maybe you had. I gather, though, that it's really "just"
                > extrapolated from Quenya (?).

                Yes, in DTS 23 (full writing) in the word "news". In DTS 39, we see
                the word "new" transcribed not with the two dots tehta above/below
                númen, but with noldo.

                <<< Ah, that explains it. I was looking through the "Lay of Leithian"
                passage (DTS 23), but I was searching for _underdots_. Also, overdots are
                used in various other instances (vowel combinations) as well in that text,
                so I overlooked this one...My mistake. Thanks! >>>

                Hisilome
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.