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Re: A Elbereth

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  • j_mach_wust
    David J. Finnamore wrote: ... ... Pretty much so. Go for the page of Måns Björkman, Amanye Tenceli: http://at.mansbjorkman.net/ The tengwar guides by Per
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 19, 2005
      David J. Finnamore wrote:
      ...
      > The kind of source I was
      > thinking of is one made by someone who has studied all the extant
      > manuscripts carefully and thoughtfully, then presented his
      > conclusions. In studying the languages, I discovered that there are
      > sources out there (on the shelves of bookstores!) that are better
      > avoided. Wondered whether the same went for script.
      ...

      Pretty much so. Go for the page of Måns Björkman, Amanye Tenceli:

      http://at.mansbjorkman.net/

      The tengwar guides by Per Lindberg are also a very good source:

      http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html

      Very good information on some often neglected tengwar texts (the
      English full writing modes that make up a more important part than any
      Middle Earth language texts among Tolkien's tengwar texts) is to be
      found at Ronald Kyrmse's site:

      http://www.geocities.com/otsoandor/FTMME.htm

      That's about it — well, don't forget the Mellonath Daeron Index of
      tengwar specimina I've already mentioned:

      http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/mdtci.html

      ---------------------------
      j. 'mach' wust
      http://machhezan.tripod.com
      ---------------------------
    • Viktor Epp
      ... This is in fact supported by the text itself: In RGEO:70 (and back cover) the subtitle of the poem is given as Aerlinn in edhil o Imladris (translated by
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 19, 2005
        j_mach_wust schrieb:

        >Fortunately, Tolkien himself left us a transcription of "A Elbereth"
        >(in the mode of Beleriand) together with the poems set to music by
        >Donald Swann. It is not indicated where it was supposedly made, but
        >since "A Elbereth" is connected with Rivendell, I think the safest
        >assumption is that this transcription is as well. [...]
        >
        This is in fact supported by the text itself: In RGEO:70 (and back
        cover) the subtitle of the poem is given as "Aerlinn in edhil o
        Imladris" (translated by Helge Fauskanger as *"Hymn of the Elves of
        Rivendell").


        Viktor
      • i_degilbor
        ... Elbereth ... by ... ebay or ... Here is Tolkien s calligraphic tengwar rendering of A Elbereth :
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 19, 2005
          Teithant David J. Finnamore:

          > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@y...>
          wrote:

          > > Fortunately, Tolkien himself left us a transcription of "A
          Elbereth"
          > > (in the mode of Beleriand) together with the poems set to music
          by
          > > Donald Swann.
          >
          > Thanks for the pointer. I'll see if I can russel up a copy on
          ebay or
          > something.

          Here is Tolkien's calligraphic tengwar rendering of 'A Elbereth':


          http://pic6.picturetrail.com/VOL164/1356691/5803627/122340787.jpg

          The tehtar and punctuation marks are higher than they should be.
          That's how they appeared in the original edition of 'The Road Goes
          Ever On'.

          Cuio mae, Danny.
        • David J. Finnamore
          Well, it s been nice chatting with you gentlemen. Guess I ve got some homework to do. When I come back some of my newbie smell will be gone, hopefully.
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 20, 2005
            Well, it's been nice chatting with you gentlemen. Guess I've got some
            homework to do. When I come back some of my newbie smell will be
            gone, hopefully.

            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@y...> wrote:
            > Pretty much so. Go for the page of Måns Björkman, Amanye Tenceli:
            >
            > http://at.mansbjorkman.net/
            >
            > The tengwar guides by Per Lindberg are also a very good source:
            >
            > http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html
            >
            > Very good information on some often neglected tengwar texts (the
            > English full writing modes that make up a more important part than any
            > Middle Earth language texts among Tolkien's tengwar texts) is to be
            > found at Ronald Kyrmse's site:
            >
            > http://www.geocities.com/otsoandor/FTMME.htm
            >
            > That's about it — well, don't forget the Mellonath Daeron Index of
            > tengwar specimina I've already mentioned:
            >
            > http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/mdtci.html
            >
            > ---------------------------
            > j. 'mach' wust
            > http://machhezan.tripod.com
            > ---------------------------
            >
          • David J. Finnamore
            ... Oh, thank you, thank you, Danny! BTW, I drooled embarrassingly over your web pages of elvish calligraphy. I can never hope to be that good, but it s
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 20, 2005
              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "i_degilbor"
              <Uialdil_i_degilbor@m...> wrote:
              > Here is Tolkien's calligraphic tengwar rendering of 'A Elbereth':
              >
              >
              > http://pic6.picturetrail.com/VOL164/1356691/5803627/122340787.jpg
              >
              > The tehtar and punctuation marks are higher than they should be.
              > That's how they appeared in the original edition of 'The Road Goes
              > Ever On'.
              >
              > Cuio mae, Danny.
              >

              Oh, thank you, thank you, Danny!

              BTW, I drooled embarrassingly over your web pages of elvish
              calligraphy. I can never hope to be that good, but it's exactly the
              sort of thing I'm picturing in my mind for the A Elbereth manuscript,
              esp andries_adarnin.jpg. That look with enough space between lines to
              add neumes. Aaaaghhghhh like Homer Simpson over a carmel baloney
              sandwich. Or better, like Sam G over a pot of stewed coneys WITH
              smelly leaves.
            • Palatinus
              ... Since you are talking with the General USe tehtar mode, I think that Lindberg is correct here. The line underneath AFAIK is used in cases other than
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 21, 2005
                > combinations. For example, Per Lindberg recommends
                > placing a line
                > above 17 for the double n of Ennorath, while the
                > page
                > http://www.geocities.com/therealteng/guide.html
                > shows 17 with a line

                Since you are talking with the 'General USe' tehtar
                mode, I think that Lindberg is correct here. The line
                underneath AFAIK is used in cases other than nasals

                > underneath. Tolkien seems to leave open the option
                > of using 21 and 22
                > for n and m, but I've never seen it done in
                > practice. I kind of like
                > that, and tried it for a while.

                This applies to Mode of Beleriand

                > The most "authentic" approach would depend on what
                > era and location
                > the manuscript is supposed to be from, right? Let's

                yes, if you like to have some 'fan fiction' backstory
                behind your manuscript, as many like to do in
                Gwaith-i-phethdain sebsite.

                > assume it was
                > made at Imladris, middle Third Age, since we don't
                > know whether the
                > Hall of Fire version of /A Elbereth/ is much older
                > than that (do we?).
                > Am I right that it would use the so called mode of
                > Gondor, with tehta
                > vowels? Any other pointers?

                i have the impression that many, or most, consider the
                Sindarin tehtar modes to be invented by Men. If that's
                correct, the only authentic ELvish Sindarin mode
                known, is the Beleriandic one.

                It's a complicated subject, and there have been some
                recent publishing concerning the 'General Use'. I'd
                like to hear other opinions about this.






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              • David J. Finnamore
                ... [snip] Thanks, Palatinus. After studying the version of /A Elbereth/ that Danny sent (http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/message/5057), made
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 21, 2005
                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Palatinus <elfiness@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > combinations. For example, Per Lindberg recommends
                  > > placing a line
                  > > above 17 for the double n of Ennorath, while the
                  > > page
                  > > http://www.geocities.com/therealteng/guide.html
                  > > shows 17 with a line
                  >
                  > Since you are talking with the 'General USe' tehtar
                  > mode, I think that Lindberg is correct here. The line
                  > underneath AFAIK is used in cases other than nasals
                  >
                  > > underneath. Tolkien seems to leave open the option
                  > > of using 21 and 22
                  > > for n and m, but I've never seen it done in
                  > > practice. I kind of like
                  > > that, and tried it for a while.
                  >
                  > This applies to Mode of Beleriand
                  >
                  [snip]

                  Thanks, Palatinus. After studying the version of /A Elbereth/ that
                  Danny sent (http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/message/5057),
                  made by Tolkien himself in the mode used at Imladris, I'm delighted to
                  find that it exhibits some of the tendencies I was already developing,
                  aside from the major difference of not using tehtar. The left swoop
                  under "g", the left curl at the top of "th" and "f", the ways adjacent
                  letters are sometimes connected, that sort of thing. I'm a little
                  disappointed at having to go with writing out vowels but I'm getting
                  used to it. I may have to embellish my melody to keep it from looking
                  too sparse above all those characters! :-)

                  David "Daeron" Finnamore
                  www.elvenminstrel.com
                • Helge K. Fauskanger
                  ... the subtitle of the poem is given as Aerlinn in edhil o Imladris (translated by Helge Fauskanger as * Hymn of the Elves of Rivendell ). Yes, it must be
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 21, 2005
                    Viktor Epp wrote:

                    > This is in fact supported by the text itself: In RGEO:70 (and back cover)
                    the subtitle of the poem is given as "Aerlinn in edhil o Imladris"
                    (translated by Helge Fauskanger as *"Hymn of the Elves of Rivendell").

                    Yes, it must be either "hymn" (aer-linn = holy-song) OR "sea-song", if
                    _aer_ here represents _aear_.

                    - HKF
                  • David J. Finnamore
                    ... cover) ... Well, it s not a sea-song, so it must be a holy song. The sea is mentioned, but only geographically. A longer version of it was sung by
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 23, 2005
                      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                      <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Viktor Epp wrote:
                      >
                      > > This is in fact supported by the text itself: In RGEO:70 (and back
                      cover)
                      > the subtitle of the poem is given as "Aerlinn in edhil o Imladris"
                      > (translated by Helge Fauskanger as *"Hymn of the Elves of Rivendell").
                      >
                      > Yes, it must be either "hymn" (aer-linn = holy-song) OR "sea-song", if
                      > _aer_ here represents _aear_.
                      >
                      > - HKF
                      >

                      Well, it's not a sea-song, so it must be a holy song. The sea is
                      mentioned, but only geographically. A longer version of it was sung
                      by Gildor's folk while walking at night under the trees and stars,
                      which are also mentioned in the text. Too bad it's only given in
                      English there. Formally, it's quite clearly a hymn, in the historical
                      meaning of the term: a song of praise.

                      David "Daeron" Finnamore
                      www.elvenminstrel.com
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