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Re: A Elbereth

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  • David J. Finnamore
    ... No doubt because app. E is readily accessible by anyone who has the book, while Tolkien s actual uses are scattered over a wide number of sources. Besides
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 18, 2005
      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@y...> wrote:

      > The problem is that many
      > descriptions of how the tengwar should be used are not based on how
      > Tolkien really used them, but extrapolated from the theoretical
      > descriptions in app. E of the Lord of the Rings.

      No doubt because app. E is readily accessible by anyone who has the
      book, while Tolkien's actual uses are scattered over a wide number of
      sources. Besides the title page and the Westgate of Moria inscription
      in LotR, all I have that shows Tolkien's uses is HoME 3, which has
      only two pages of it, one of which was made back in the 1920s, I
      think. Not much to go on.


      > Sure there is an authoritative source: J. R. R. Tolkien! :) One should
      > keep back his own preferences as long as there is any precedence in
      > Tolkien's work.

      Well, yeah. Heh heh. That's not really a source, though, it's the
      author of the multiple original sources. The kind of source I was
      thinking of is one made by someone who has studied all the extant
      manuscripts carefully and thoughtfully, then presented his
      conclusions. In studying the languages, I discovered that there are
      sources out there (on the shelves of bookstores!) that are better
      avoided. Wondered whether the same went for script.


      > Fortunately, Tolkien himself left us a transcription of "A Elbereth"
      > (in the mode of Beleriand) together with the poems set to music by
      > Donald Swann.

      Thanks for the pointer. I'll see if I can russel up a copy on ebay or
      something.

      > history of Rivendell: Since it was founded by refugees of Eregion, it
      > is very probable that they continued to use the same orthography as in
      > Eregion, the "mode of Beleriand".

      Good info. Thanks. Most helpful.

      --
      David "Daeron" Finnamore
      www.elvenminstrel.com
    • j_mach_wust
      David J. Finnamore wrote: ... ... Pretty much so. Go for the page of Måns Björkman, Amanye Tenceli: http://at.mansbjorkman.net/ The tengwar guides by Per
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 19, 2005
        David J. Finnamore wrote:
        ...
        > The kind of source I was
        > thinking of is one made by someone who has studied all the extant
        > manuscripts carefully and thoughtfully, then presented his
        > conclusions. In studying the languages, I discovered that there are
        > sources out there (on the shelves of bookstores!) that are better
        > avoided. Wondered whether the same went for script.
        ...

        Pretty much so. Go for the page of Måns Björkman, Amanye Tenceli:

        http://at.mansbjorkman.net/

        The tengwar guides by Per Lindberg are also a very good source:

        http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html

        Very good information on some often neglected tengwar texts (the
        English full writing modes that make up a more important part than any
        Middle Earth language texts among Tolkien's tengwar texts) is to be
        found at Ronald Kyrmse's site:

        http://www.geocities.com/otsoandor/FTMME.htm

        That's about it — well, don't forget the Mellonath Daeron Index of
        tengwar specimina I've already mentioned:

        http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/mdtci.html

        ---------------------------
        j. 'mach' wust
        http://machhezan.tripod.com
        ---------------------------
      • Viktor Epp
        ... This is in fact supported by the text itself: In RGEO:70 (and back cover) the subtitle of the poem is given as Aerlinn in edhil o Imladris (translated by
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 19, 2005
          j_mach_wust schrieb:

          >Fortunately, Tolkien himself left us a transcription of "A Elbereth"
          >(in the mode of Beleriand) together with the poems set to music by
          >Donald Swann. It is not indicated where it was supposedly made, but
          >since "A Elbereth" is connected with Rivendell, I think the safest
          >assumption is that this transcription is as well. [...]
          >
          This is in fact supported by the text itself: In RGEO:70 (and back
          cover) the subtitle of the poem is given as "Aerlinn in edhil o
          Imladris" (translated by Helge Fauskanger as *"Hymn of the Elves of
          Rivendell").


          Viktor
        • i_degilbor
          ... Elbereth ... by ... ebay or ... Here is Tolkien s calligraphic tengwar rendering of A Elbereth :
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 19, 2005
            Teithant David J. Finnamore:

            > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@y...>
            wrote:

            > > Fortunately, Tolkien himself left us a transcription of "A
            Elbereth"
            > > (in the mode of Beleriand) together with the poems set to music
            by
            > > Donald Swann.
            >
            > Thanks for the pointer. I'll see if I can russel up a copy on
            ebay or
            > something.

            Here is Tolkien's calligraphic tengwar rendering of 'A Elbereth':


            http://pic6.picturetrail.com/VOL164/1356691/5803627/122340787.jpg

            The tehtar and punctuation marks are higher than they should be.
            That's how they appeared in the original edition of 'The Road Goes
            Ever On'.

            Cuio mae, Danny.
          • David J. Finnamore
            Well, it s been nice chatting with you gentlemen. Guess I ve got some homework to do. When I come back some of my newbie smell will be gone, hopefully.
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 20, 2005
              Well, it's been nice chatting with you gentlemen. Guess I've got some
              homework to do. When I come back some of my newbie smell will be
              gone, hopefully.

              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@y...> wrote:
              > Pretty much so. Go for the page of Måns Björkman, Amanye Tenceli:
              >
              > http://at.mansbjorkman.net/
              >
              > The tengwar guides by Per Lindberg are also a very good source:
              >
              > http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html
              >
              > Very good information on some often neglected tengwar texts (the
              > English full writing modes that make up a more important part than any
              > Middle Earth language texts among Tolkien's tengwar texts) is to be
              > found at Ronald Kyrmse's site:
              >
              > http://www.geocities.com/otsoandor/FTMME.htm
              >
              > That's about it — well, don't forget the Mellonath Daeron Index of
              > tengwar specimina I've already mentioned:
              >
              > http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/mdtci.html
              >
              > ---------------------------
              > j. 'mach' wust
              > http://machhezan.tripod.com
              > ---------------------------
              >
            • David J. Finnamore
              ... Oh, thank you, thank you, Danny! BTW, I drooled embarrassingly over your web pages of elvish calligraphy. I can never hope to be that good, but it s
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 20, 2005
                --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "i_degilbor"
                <Uialdil_i_degilbor@m...> wrote:
                > Here is Tolkien's calligraphic tengwar rendering of 'A Elbereth':
                >
                >
                > http://pic6.picturetrail.com/VOL164/1356691/5803627/122340787.jpg
                >
                > The tehtar and punctuation marks are higher than they should be.
                > That's how they appeared in the original edition of 'The Road Goes
                > Ever On'.
                >
                > Cuio mae, Danny.
                >

                Oh, thank you, thank you, Danny!

                BTW, I drooled embarrassingly over your web pages of elvish
                calligraphy. I can never hope to be that good, but it's exactly the
                sort of thing I'm picturing in my mind for the A Elbereth manuscript,
                esp andries_adarnin.jpg. That look with enough space between lines to
                add neumes. Aaaaghhghhh like Homer Simpson over a carmel baloney
                sandwich. Or better, like Sam G over a pot of stewed coneys WITH
                smelly leaves.
              • Palatinus
                ... Since you are talking with the General USe tehtar mode, I think that Lindberg is correct here. The line underneath AFAIK is used in cases other than
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 21, 2005
                  > combinations. For example, Per Lindberg recommends
                  > placing a line
                  > above 17 for the double n of Ennorath, while the
                  > page
                  > http://www.geocities.com/therealteng/guide.html
                  > shows 17 with a line

                  Since you are talking with the 'General USe' tehtar
                  mode, I think that Lindberg is correct here. The line
                  underneath AFAIK is used in cases other than nasals

                  > underneath. Tolkien seems to leave open the option
                  > of using 21 and 22
                  > for n and m, but I've never seen it done in
                  > practice. I kind of like
                  > that, and tried it for a while.

                  This applies to Mode of Beleriand

                  > The most "authentic" approach would depend on what
                  > era and location
                  > the manuscript is supposed to be from, right? Let's

                  yes, if you like to have some 'fan fiction' backstory
                  behind your manuscript, as many like to do in
                  Gwaith-i-phethdain sebsite.

                  > assume it was
                  > made at Imladris, middle Third Age, since we don't
                  > know whether the
                  > Hall of Fire version of /A Elbereth/ is much older
                  > than that (do we?).
                  > Am I right that it would use the so called mode of
                  > Gondor, with tehta
                  > vowels? Any other pointers?

                  i have the impression that many, or most, consider the
                  Sindarin tehtar modes to be invented by Men. If that's
                  correct, the only authentic ELvish Sindarin mode
                  known, is the Beleriandic one.

                  It's a complicated subject, and there have been some
                  recent publishing concerning the 'General Use'. I'd
                  like to hear other opinions about this.






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                • David J. Finnamore
                  ... [snip] Thanks, Palatinus. After studying the version of /A Elbereth/ that Danny sent (http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/message/5057), made
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 21, 2005
                    --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Palatinus <elfiness@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > combinations. For example, Per Lindberg recommends
                    > > placing a line
                    > > above 17 for the double n of Ennorath, while the
                    > > page
                    > > http://www.geocities.com/therealteng/guide.html
                    > > shows 17 with a line
                    >
                    > Since you are talking with the 'General USe' tehtar
                    > mode, I think that Lindberg is correct here. The line
                    > underneath AFAIK is used in cases other than nasals
                    >
                    > > underneath. Tolkien seems to leave open the option
                    > > of using 21 and 22
                    > > for n and m, but I've never seen it done in
                    > > practice. I kind of like
                    > > that, and tried it for a while.
                    >
                    > This applies to Mode of Beleriand
                    >
                    [snip]

                    Thanks, Palatinus. After studying the version of /A Elbereth/ that
                    Danny sent (http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/message/5057),
                    made by Tolkien himself in the mode used at Imladris, I'm delighted to
                    find that it exhibits some of the tendencies I was already developing,
                    aside from the major difference of not using tehtar. The left swoop
                    under "g", the left curl at the top of "th" and "f", the ways adjacent
                    letters are sometimes connected, that sort of thing. I'm a little
                    disappointed at having to go with writing out vowels but I'm getting
                    used to it. I may have to embellish my melody to keep it from looking
                    too sparse above all those characters! :-)

                    David "Daeron" Finnamore
                    www.elvenminstrel.com
                  • Helge K. Fauskanger
                    ... the subtitle of the poem is given as Aerlinn in edhil o Imladris (translated by Helge Fauskanger as * Hymn of the Elves of Rivendell ). Yes, it must be
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 21, 2005
                      Viktor Epp wrote:

                      > This is in fact supported by the text itself: In RGEO:70 (and back cover)
                      the subtitle of the poem is given as "Aerlinn in edhil o Imladris"
                      (translated by Helge Fauskanger as *"Hymn of the Elves of Rivendell").

                      Yes, it must be either "hymn" (aer-linn = holy-song) OR "sea-song", if
                      _aer_ here represents _aear_.

                      - HKF
                    • David J. Finnamore
                      ... cover) ... Well, it s not a sea-song, so it must be a holy song. The sea is mentioned, but only geographically. A longer version of it was sung by
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 23, 2005
                        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                        <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Viktor Epp wrote:
                        >
                        > > This is in fact supported by the text itself: In RGEO:70 (and back
                        cover)
                        > the subtitle of the poem is given as "Aerlinn in edhil o Imladris"
                        > (translated by Helge Fauskanger as *"Hymn of the Elves of Rivendell").
                        >
                        > Yes, it must be either "hymn" (aer-linn = holy-song) OR "sea-song", if
                        > _aer_ here represents _aear_.
                        >
                        > - HKF
                        >

                        Well, it's not a sea-song, so it must be a holy song. The sea is
                        mentioned, but only geographically. A longer version of it was sung
                        by Gildor's folk while walking at night under the trees and stars,
                        which are also mentioned in the text. Too bad it's only given in
                        English there. Formally, it's quite clearly a hymn, in the historical
                        meaning of the term: a song of praise.

                        David "Daeron" Finnamore
                        www.elvenminstrel.com
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