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Re: A Elbereth

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  • j_mach_wust
    David J. Finnamore wrote: ... I think Per Lindberg is more creditable. The problem is that many descriptions of how the tengwar should be used are not based on
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 18, 2005
      David J. Finnamore wrote:
      ...
      > For example, Per Lindberg recommends placing a line
      > above 17 for the double n of Ennorath, while the page
      > http://www.geocities.com/therealteng/guide.html shows 17 with a line
      > underneath.

      I think Per Lindberg is more creditable. The problem is that many
      descriptions of how the tengwar should be used are not based on how
      Tolkien really used them, but extrapolated from the theoretical
      descriptions in app. E of the Lord of the Rings.

      ...
      > Being new to this community, I'd like to know whether it would be
      > most prudent to just pick a style I like and stick with it, or
      > whether some style has become most widely accepted, or should I
      > cobble together a style based on my own preferences, or what? Is
      > there a source considered to be most authoritative, and any I might
      > be wise to avoid?

      Sure there is an authoritative source: J. R. R. Tolkien! :) One should
      keep back his own preferences as long as there is any precedence in
      Tolkien's work.

      > The most "authentic" approach would depend on what era and location
      > the manuscript is supposed to be from, right? Let's assume it was
      > made at Imladris, middle Third Age, since we don't know whether the
      > Hall of Fire version of /A Elbereth/ is much older than that (do
      > we?). Am I right that it would use the so called mode of Gondor,
      > with tehta vowels? Any other pointers?
      ...

      Fortunately, Tolkien himself left us a transcription of "A Elbereth"
      (in the mode of Beleriand) together with the poems set to music by
      Donald Swann. It is not indicated where it was supposedly made, but
      since "A Elbereth" is connected with Rivendell, I think the safest
      assumption is that this transcription is as well. This transcription
      is one of the hints we have on what mode of tengwar was used in
      Rivendell. Another hint that points in the same direction is the
      history of Rivendell: Since it was founded by refugees of Eregion, it
      is very probable that they continued to use the same orthography as in
      Eregion, the "mode of Beleriand".

      Full specifications of that tengwar sample can be found in the
      excellent Mellonath Daeron index of tengwar specimina (a complete list
      of all known tengwar samples):

      http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/mdtci.html#DTS21

      ---------------------------
      j. 'mach' wust
      http://machhezan.tripod.com
      ---------------------------
    • David J. Finnamore
      ... No doubt because app. E is readily accessible by anyone who has the book, while Tolkien s actual uses are scattered over a wide number of sources. Besides
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 18, 2005
        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@y...> wrote:

        > The problem is that many
        > descriptions of how the tengwar should be used are not based on how
        > Tolkien really used them, but extrapolated from the theoretical
        > descriptions in app. E of the Lord of the Rings.

        No doubt because app. E is readily accessible by anyone who has the
        book, while Tolkien's actual uses are scattered over a wide number of
        sources. Besides the title page and the Westgate of Moria inscription
        in LotR, all I have that shows Tolkien's uses is HoME 3, which has
        only two pages of it, one of which was made back in the 1920s, I
        think. Not much to go on.


        > Sure there is an authoritative source: J. R. R. Tolkien! :) One should
        > keep back his own preferences as long as there is any precedence in
        > Tolkien's work.

        Well, yeah. Heh heh. That's not really a source, though, it's the
        author of the multiple original sources. The kind of source I was
        thinking of is one made by someone who has studied all the extant
        manuscripts carefully and thoughtfully, then presented his
        conclusions. In studying the languages, I discovered that there are
        sources out there (on the shelves of bookstores!) that are better
        avoided. Wondered whether the same went for script.


        > Fortunately, Tolkien himself left us a transcription of "A Elbereth"
        > (in the mode of Beleriand) together with the poems set to music by
        > Donald Swann.

        Thanks for the pointer. I'll see if I can russel up a copy on ebay or
        something.

        > history of Rivendell: Since it was founded by refugees of Eregion, it
        > is very probable that they continued to use the same orthography as in
        > Eregion, the "mode of Beleriand".

        Good info. Thanks. Most helpful.

        --
        David "Daeron" Finnamore
        www.elvenminstrel.com
      • j_mach_wust
        David J. Finnamore wrote: ... ... Pretty much so. Go for the page of Måns Björkman, Amanye Tenceli: http://at.mansbjorkman.net/ The tengwar guides by Per
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 19, 2005
          David J. Finnamore wrote:
          ...
          > The kind of source I was
          > thinking of is one made by someone who has studied all the extant
          > manuscripts carefully and thoughtfully, then presented his
          > conclusions. In studying the languages, I discovered that there are
          > sources out there (on the shelves of bookstores!) that are better
          > avoided. Wondered whether the same went for script.
          ...

          Pretty much so. Go for the page of Måns Björkman, Amanye Tenceli:

          http://at.mansbjorkman.net/

          The tengwar guides by Per Lindberg are also a very good source:

          http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html

          Very good information on some often neglected tengwar texts (the
          English full writing modes that make up a more important part than any
          Middle Earth language texts among Tolkien's tengwar texts) is to be
          found at Ronald Kyrmse's site:

          http://www.geocities.com/otsoandor/FTMME.htm

          That's about it — well, don't forget the Mellonath Daeron Index of
          tengwar specimina I've already mentioned:

          http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/mdtci.html

          ---------------------------
          j. 'mach' wust
          http://machhezan.tripod.com
          ---------------------------
        • Viktor Epp
          ... This is in fact supported by the text itself: In RGEO:70 (and back cover) the subtitle of the poem is given as Aerlinn in edhil o Imladris (translated by
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 19, 2005
            j_mach_wust schrieb:

            >Fortunately, Tolkien himself left us a transcription of "A Elbereth"
            >(in the mode of Beleriand) together with the poems set to music by
            >Donald Swann. It is not indicated where it was supposedly made, but
            >since "A Elbereth" is connected with Rivendell, I think the safest
            >assumption is that this transcription is as well. [...]
            >
            This is in fact supported by the text itself: In RGEO:70 (and back
            cover) the subtitle of the poem is given as "Aerlinn in edhil o
            Imladris" (translated by Helge Fauskanger as *"Hymn of the Elves of
            Rivendell").


            Viktor
          • i_degilbor
            ... Elbereth ... by ... ebay or ... Here is Tolkien s calligraphic tengwar rendering of A Elbereth :
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 19, 2005
              Teithant David J. Finnamore:

              > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@y...>
              wrote:

              > > Fortunately, Tolkien himself left us a transcription of "A
              Elbereth"
              > > (in the mode of Beleriand) together with the poems set to music
              by
              > > Donald Swann.
              >
              > Thanks for the pointer. I'll see if I can russel up a copy on
              ebay or
              > something.

              Here is Tolkien's calligraphic tengwar rendering of 'A Elbereth':


              http://pic6.picturetrail.com/VOL164/1356691/5803627/122340787.jpg

              The tehtar and punctuation marks are higher than they should be.
              That's how they appeared in the original edition of 'The Road Goes
              Ever On'.

              Cuio mae, Danny.
            • David J. Finnamore
              Well, it s been nice chatting with you gentlemen. Guess I ve got some homework to do. When I come back some of my newbie smell will be gone, hopefully.
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 20, 2005
                Well, it's been nice chatting with you gentlemen. Guess I've got some
                homework to do. When I come back some of my newbie smell will be
                gone, hopefully.

                --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@y...> wrote:
                > Pretty much so. Go for the page of Måns Björkman, Amanye Tenceli:
                >
                > http://at.mansbjorkman.net/
                >
                > The tengwar guides by Per Lindberg are also a very good source:
                >
                > http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html
                >
                > Very good information on some often neglected tengwar texts (the
                > English full writing modes that make up a more important part than any
                > Middle Earth language texts among Tolkien's tengwar texts) is to be
                > found at Ronald Kyrmse's site:
                >
                > http://www.geocities.com/otsoandor/FTMME.htm
                >
                > That's about it — well, don't forget the Mellonath Daeron Index of
                > tengwar specimina I've already mentioned:
                >
                > http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/mdtci.html
                >
                > ---------------------------
                > j. 'mach' wust
                > http://machhezan.tripod.com
                > ---------------------------
                >
              • David J. Finnamore
                ... Oh, thank you, thank you, Danny! BTW, I drooled embarrassingly over your web pages of elvish calligraphy. I can never hope to be that good, but it s
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 20, 2005
                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "i_degilbor"
                  <Uialdil_i_degilbor@m...> wrote:
                  > Here is Tolkien's calligraphic tengwar rendering of 'A Elbereth':
                  >
                  >
                  > http://pic6.picturetrail.com/VOL164/1356691/5803627/122340787.jpg
                  >
                  > The tehtar and punctuation marks are higher than they should be.
                  > That's how they appeared in the original edition of 'The Road Goes
                  > Ever On'.
                  >
                  > Cuio mae, Danny.
                  >

                  Oh, thank you, thank you, Danny!

                  BTW, I drooled embarrassingly over your web pages of elvish
                  calligraphy. I can never hope to be that good, but it's exactly the
                  sort of thing I'm picturing in my mind for the A Elbereth manuscript,
                  esp andries_adarnin.jpg. That look with enough space between lines to
                  add neumes. Aaaaghhghhh like Homer Simpson over a carmel baloney
                  sandwich. Or better, like Sam G over a pot of stewed coneys WITH
                  smelly leaves.
                • Palatinus
                  ... Since you are talking with the General USe tehtar mode, I think that Lindberg is correct here. The line underneath AFAIK is used in cases other than
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 21, 2005
                    > combinations. For example, Per Lindberg recommends
                    > placing a line
                    > above 17 for the double n of Ennorath, while the
                    > page
                    > http://www.geocities.com/therealteng/guide.html
                    > shows 17 with a line

                    Since you are talking with the 'General USe' tehtar
                    mode, I think that Lindberg is correct here. The line
                    underneath AFAIK is used in cases other than nasals

                    > underneath. Tolkien seems to leave open the option
                    > of using 21 and 22
                    > for n and m, but I've never seen it done in
                    > practice. I kind of like
                    > that, and tried it for a while.

                    This applies to Mode of Beleriand

                    > The most "authentic" approach would depend on what
                    > era and location
                    > the manuscript is supposed to be from, right? Let's

                    yes, if you like to have some 'fan fiction' backstory
                    behind your manuscript, as many like to do in
                    Gwaith-i-phethdain sebsite.

                    > assume it was
                    > made at Imladris, middle Third Age, since we don't
                    > know whether the
                    > Hall of Fire version of /A Elbereth/ is much older
                    > than that (do we?).
                    > Am I right that it would use the so called mode of
                    > Gondor, with tehta
                    > vowels? Any other pointers?

                    i have the impression that many, or most, consider the
                    Sindarin tehtar modes to be invented by Men. If that's
                    correct, the only authentic ELvish Sindarin mode
                    known, is the Beleriandic one.

                    It's a complicated subject, and there have been some
                    recent publishing concerning the 'General Use'. I'd
                    like to hear other opinions about this.






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                  • David J. Finnamore
                    ... [snip] Thanks, Palatinus. After studying the version of /A Elbereth/ that Danny sent (http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/message/5057), made
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 21, 2005
                      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Palatinus <elfiness@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > combinations. For example, Per Lindberg recommends
                      > > placing a line
                      > > above 17 for the double n of Ennorath, while the
                      > > page
                      > > http://www.geocities.com/therealteng/guide.html
                      > > shows 17 with a line
                      >
                      > Since you are talking with the 'General USe' tehtar
                      > mode, I think that Lindberg is correct here. The line
                      > underneath AFAIK is used in cases other than nasals
                      >
                      > > underneath. Tolkien seems to leave open the option
                      > > of using 21 and 22
                      > > for n and m, but I've never seen it done in
                      > > practice. I kind of like
                      > > that, and tried it for a while.
                      >
                      > This applies to Mode of Beleriand
                      >
                      [snip]

                      Thanks, Palatinus. After studying the version of /A Elbereth/ that
                      Danny sent (http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/message/5057),
                      made by Tolkien himself in the mode used at Imladris, I'm delighted to
                      find that it exhibits some of the tendencies I was already developing,
                      aside from the major difference of not using tehtar. The left swoop
                      under "g", the left curl at the top of "th" and "f", the ways adjacent
                      letters are sometimes connected, that sort of thing. I'm a little
                      disappointed at having to go with writing out vowels but I'm getting
                      used to it. I may have to embellish my melody to keep it from looking
                      too sparse above all those characters! :-)

                      David "Daeron" Finnamore
                      www.elvenminstrel.com
                    • Helge K. Fauskanger
                      ... the subtitle of the poem is given as Aerlinn in edhil o Imladris (translated by Helge Fauskanger as * Hymn of the Elves of Rivendell ). Yes, it must be
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 21, 2005
                        Viktor Epp wrote:

                        > This is in fact supported by the text itself: In RGEO:70 (and back cover)
                        the subtitle of the poem is given as "Aerlinn in edhil o Imladris"
                        (translated by Helge Fauskanger as *"Hymn of the Elves of Rivendell").

                        Yes, it must be either "hymn" (aer-linn = holy-song) OR "sea-song", if
                        _aer_ here represents _aear_.

                        - HKF
                      • David J. Finnamore
                        ... cover) ... Well, it s not a sea-song, so it must be a holy song. The sea is mentioned, but only geographically. A longer version of it was sung by
                        Message 11 of 12 , Dec 23, 2005
                          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                          <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Viktor Epp wrote:
                          >
                          > > This is in fact supported by the text itself: In RGEO:70 (and back
                          cover)
                          > the subtitle of the poem is given as "Aerlinn in edhil o Imladris"
                          > (translated by Helge Fauskanger as *"Hymn of the Elves of Rivendell").
                          >
                          > Yes, it must be either "hymn" (aer-linn = holy-song) OR "sea-song", if
                          > _aer_ here represents _aear_.
                          >
                          > - HKF
                          >

                          Well, it's not a sea-song, so it must be a holy song. The sea is
                          mentioned, but only geographically. A longer version of it was sung
                          by Gildor's folk while walking at night under the trees and stars,
                          which are also mentioned in the text. Too bad it's only given in
                          English there. Formally, it's quite clearly a hymn, in the historical
                          meaning of the term: a song of praise.

                          David "Daeron" Finnamore
                          www.elvenminstrel.com
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