Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

A Elbereth

Expand Messages
  • David J. Finnamore
    I m attempting to discover :-) a musical score of /A Elbereth Gilthoniel/, with the text written in tengwar and the music more-or-less like an early medieval
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 17, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      I'm attempting to "discover" :-) a musical score of /A Elbereth
      Gilthoniel/, with the text written in tengwar and the music
      more-or-less like an early medieval chant (my own melody). I'm
      studying various approaches and, not surprisingly, have encountered
      conflicting opinions about certain characters and character
      combinations. For example, Per Lindberg recommends placing a line
      above 17 for the double n of Ennorath, while the page
      http://www.geocities.com/therealteng/guide.html shows 17 with a line
      underneath. Tolkien seems to leave open the option of using 21 and 22
      for n and m, but I've never seen it done in practice. I kind of like
      that, and tried it for a while.

      Being new to this community, I'd like to know whether it would be most
      prudent to just pick a style I like and stick with it, or whether some
      style has become most widely accepted, or should I cobble together a
      style based on my own preferences, or what? Is there a source
      considered to be most authoritative, and any I might be wise to avoid?

      The most "authentic" approach would depend on what era and location
      the manuscript is supposed to be from, right? Let's assume it was
      made at Imladris, middle Third Age, since we don't know whether the
      Hall of Fire version of /A Elbereth/ is much older than that (do we?).
      Am I right that it would use the so called mode of Gondor, with tehta
      vowels? Any other pointers?

      Thanks in advance for any advice,

      David "Daeron" Finnamore
    • j_mach_wust
      David J. Finnamore wrote: ... I think Per Lindberg is more creditable. The problem is that many descriptions of how the tengwar should be used are not based on
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 18, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        David J. Finnamore wrote:
        ...
        > For example, Per Lindberg recommends placing a line
        > above 17 for the double n of Ennorath, while the page
        > http://www.geocities.com/therealteng/guide.html shows 17 with a line
        > underneath.

        I think Per Lindberg is more creditable. The problem is that many
        descriptions of how the tengwar should be used are not based on how
        Tolkien really used them, but extrapolated from the theoretical
        descriptions in app. E of the Lord of the Rings.

        ...
        > Being new to this community, I'd like to know whether it would be
        > most prudent to just pick a style I like and stick with it, or
        > whether some style has become most widely accepted, or should I
        > cobble together a style based on my own preferences, or what? Is
        > there a source considered to be most authoritative, and any I might
        > be wise to avoid?

        Sure there is an authoritative source: J. R. R. Tolkien! :) One should
        keep back his own preferences as long as there is any precedence in
        Tolkien's work.

        > The most "authentic" approach would depend on what era and location
        > the manuscript is supposed to be from, right? Let's assume it was
        > made at Imladris, middle Third Age, since we don't know whether the
        > Hall of Fire version of /A Elbereth/ is much older than that (do
        > we?). Am I right that it would use the so called mode of Gondor,
        > with tehta vowels? Any other pointers?
        ...

        Fortunately, Tolkien himself left us a transcription of "A Elbereth"
        (in the mode of Beleriand) together with the poems set to music by
        Donald Swann. It is not indicated where it was supposedly made, but
        since "A Elbereth" is connected with Rivendell, I think the safest
        assumption is that this transcription is as well. This transcription
        is one of the hints we have on what mode of tengwar was used in
        Rivendell. Another hint that points in the same direction is the
        history of Rivendell: Since it was founded by refugees of Eregion, it
        is very probable that they continued to use the same orthography as in
        Eregion, the "mode of Beleriand".

        Full specifications of that tengwar sample can be found in the
        excellent Mellonath Daeron index of tengwar specimina (a complete list
        of all known tengwar samples):

        http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/mdtci.html#DTS21

        ---------------------------
        j. 'mach' wust
        http://machhezan.tripod.com
        ---------------------------
      • David J. Finnamore
        ... No doubt because app. E is readily accessible by anyone who has the book, while Tolkien s actual uses are scattered over a wide number of sources. Besides
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 18, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@y...> wrote:

          > The problem is that many
          > descriptions of how the tengwar should be used are not based on how
          > Tolkien really used them, but extrapolated from the theoretical
          > descriptions in app. E of the Lord of the Rings.

          No doubt because app. E is readily accessible by anyone who has the
          book, while Tolkien's actual uses are scattered over a wide number of
          sources. Besides the title page and the Westgate of Moria inscription
          in LotR, all I have that shows Tolkien's uses is HoME 3, which has
          only two pages of it, one of which was made back in the 1920s, I
          think. Not much to go on.


          > Sure there is an authoritative source: J. R. R. Tolkien! :) One should
          > keep back his own preferences as long as there is any precedence in
          > Tolkien's work.

          Well, yeah. Heh heh. That's not really a source, though, it's the
          author of the multiple original sources. The kind of source I was
          thinking of is one made by someone who has studied all the extant
          manuscripts carefully and thoughtfully, then presented his
          conclusions. In studying the languages, I discovered that there are
          sources out there (on the shelves of bookstores!) that are better
          avoided. Wondered whether the same went for script.


          > Fortunately, Tolkien himself left us a transcription of "A Elbereth"
          > (in the mode of Beleriand) together with the poems set to music by
          > Donald Swann.

          Thanks for the pointer. I'll see if I can russel up a copy on ebay or
          something.

          > history of Rivendell: Since it was founded by refugees of Eregion, it
          > is very probable that they continued to use the same orthography as in
          > Eregion, the "mode of Beleriand".

          Good info. Thanks. Most helpful.

          --
          David "Daeron" Finnamore
          www.elvenminstrel.com
        • j_mach_wust
          David J. Finnamore wrote: ... ... Pretty much so. Go for the page of Måns Björkman, Amanye Tenceli: http://at.mansbjorkman.net/ The tengwar guides by Per
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 19, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            David J. Finnamore wrote:
            ...
            > The kind of source I was
            > thinking of is one made by someone who has studied all the extant
            > manuscripts carefully and thoughtfully, then presented his
            > conclusions. In studying the languages, I discovered that there are
            > sources out there (on the shelves of bookstores!) that are better
            > avoided. Wondered whether the same went for script.
            ...

            Pretty much so. Go for the page of Måns Björkman, Amanye Tenceli:

            http://at.mansbjorkman.net/

            The tengwar guides by Per Lindberg are also a very good source:

            http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html

            Very good information on some often neglected tengwar texts (the
            English full writing modes that make up a more important part than any
            Middle Earth language texts among Tolkien's tengwar texts) is to be
            found at Ronald Kyrmse's site:

            http://www.geocities.com/otsoandor/FTMME.htm

            That's about it — well, don't forget the Mellonath Daeron Index of
            tengwar specimina I've already mentioned:

            http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/mdtci.html

            ---------------------------
            j. 'mach' wust
            http://machhezan.tripod.com
            ---------------------------
          • Viktor Epp
            ... This is in fact supported by the text itself: In RGEO:70 (and back cover) the subtitle of the poem is given as Aerlinn in edhil o Imladris (translated by
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 19, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              j_mach_wust schrieb:

              >Fortunately, Tolkien himself left us a transcription of "A Elbereth"
              >(in the mode of Beleriand) together with the poems set to music by
              >Donald Swann. It is not indicated where it was supposedly made, but
              >since "A Elbereth" is connected with Rivendell, I think the safest
              >assumption is that this transcription is as well. [...]
              >
              This is in fact supported by the text itself: In RGEO:70 (and back
              cover) the subtitle of the poem is given as "Aerlinn in edhil o
              Imladris" (translated by Helge Fauskanger as *"Hymn of the Elves of
              Rivendell").


              Viktor
            • i_degilbor
              ... Elbereth ... by ... ebay or ... Here is Tolkien s calligraphic tengwar rendering of A Elbereth :
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 19, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                Teithant David J. Finnamore:

                > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@y...>
                wrote:

                > > Fortunately, Tolkien himself left us a transcription of "A
                Elbereth"
                > > (in the mode of Beleriand) together with the poems set to music
                by
                > > Donald Swann.
                >
                > Thanks for the pointer. I'll see if I can russel up a copy on
                ebay or
                > something.

                Here is Tolkien's calligraphic tengwar rendering of 'A Elbereth':


                http://pic6.picturetrail.com/VOL164/1356691/5803627/122340787.jpg

                The tehtar and punctuation marks are higher than they should be.
                That's how they appeared in the original edition of 'The Road Goes
                Ever On'.

                Cuio mae, Danny.
              • David J. Finnamore
                Well, it s been nice chatting with you gentlemen. Guess I ve got some homework to do. When I come back some of my newbie smell will be gone, hopefully.
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 20, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Well, it's been nice chatting with you gentlemen. Guess I've got some
                  homework to do. When I come back some of my newbie smell will be
                  gone, hopefully.

                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@y...> wrote:
                  > Pretty much so. Go for the page of Måns Björkman, Amanye Tenceli:
                  >
                  > http://at.mansbjorkman.net/
                  >
                  > The tengwar guides by Per Lindberg are also a very good source:
                  >
                  > http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html
                  >
                  > Very good information on some often neglected tengwar texts (the
                  > English full writing modes that make up a more important part than any
                  > Middle Earth language texts among Tolkien's tengwar texts) is to be
                  > found at Ronald Kyrmse's site:
                  >
                  > http://www.geocities.com/otsoandor/FTMME.htm
                  >
                  > That's about it — well, don't forget the Mellonath Daeron Index of
                  > tengwar specimina I've already mentioned:
                  >
                  > http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/mdtci.html
                  >
                  > ---------------------------
                  > j. 'mach' wust
                  > http://machhezan.tripod.com
                  > ---------------------------
                  >
                • David J. Finnamore
                  ... Oh, thank you, thank you, Danny! BTW, I drooled embarrassingly over your web pages of elvish calligraphy. I can never hope to be that good, but it s
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 20, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "i_degilbor"
                    <Uialdil_i_degilbor@m...> wrote:
                    > Here is Tolkien's calligraphic tengwar rendering of 'A Elbereth':
                    >
                    >
                    > http://pic6.picturetrail.com/VOL164/1356691/5803627/122340787.jpg
                    >
                    > The tehtar and punctuation marks are higher than they should be.
                    > That's how they appeared in the original edition of 'The Road Goes
                    > Ever On'.
                    >
                    > Cuio mae, Danny.
                    >

                    Oh, thank you, thank you, Danny!

                    BTW, I drooled embarrassingly over your web pages of elvish
                    calligraphy. I can never hope to be that good, but it's exactly the
                    sort of thing I'm picturing in my mind for the A Elbereth manuscript,
                    esp andries_adarnin.jpg. That look with enough space between lines to
                    add neumes. Aaaaghhghhh like Homer Simpson over a carmel baloney
                    sandwich. Or better, like Sam G over a pot of stewed coneys WITH
                    smelly leaves.
                  • Palatinus
                    ... Since you are talking with the General USe tehtar mode, I think that Lindberg is correct here. The line underneath AFAIK is used in cases other than
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 21, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      > combinations. For example, Per Lindberg recommends
                      > placing a line
                      > above 17 for the double n of Ennorath, while the
                      > page
                      > http://www.geocities.com/therealteng/guide.html
                      > shows 17 with a line

                      Since you are talking with the 'General USe' tehtar
                      mode, I think that Lindberg is correct here. The line
                      underneath AFAIK is used in cases other than nasals

                      > underneath. Tolkien seems to leave open the option
                      > of using 21 and 22
                      > for n and m, but I've never seen it done in
                      > practice. I kind of like
                      > that, and tried it for a while.

                      This applies to Mode of Beleriand

                      > The most "authentic" approach would depend on what
                      > era and location
                      > the manuscript is supposed to be from, right? Let's

                      yes, if you like to have some 'fan fiction' backstory
                      behind your manuscript, as many like to do in
                      Gwaith-i-phethdain sebsite.

                      > assume it was
                      > made at Imladris, middle Third Age, since we don't
                      > know whether the
                      > Hall of Fire version of /A Elbereth/ is much older
                      > than that (do we?).
                      > Am I right that it would use the so called mode of
                      > Gondor, with tehta
                      > vowels? Any other pointers?

                      i have the impression that many, or most, consider the
                      Sindarin tehtar modes to be invented by Men. If that's
                      correct, the only authentic ELvish Sindarin mode
                      known, is the Beleriandic one.

                      It's a complicated subject, and there have been some
                      recent publishing concerning the 'General Use'. I'd
                      like to hear other opinions about this.






                      ___________________________________________________________
                      Χρησιμοποιείτε Yahoo!;
                      Βαρεθήκατε τα ενοχλητικά μηνύματα (spam); Το Yahoo! Mail
                      διαθέτει την καλύτερη δυνατή προστασία κατά των ενοχλητικών
                      μηνυμάτων http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr
                    • David J. Finnamore
                      ... [snip] Thanks, Palatinus. After studying the version of /A Elbereth/ that Danny sent (http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/message/5057), made
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 21, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Palatinus <elfiness@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > combinations. For example, Per Lindberg recommends
                        > > placing a line
                        > > above 17 for the double n of Ennorath, while the
                        > > page
                        > > http://www.geocities.com/therealteng/guide.html
                        > > shows 17 with a line
                        >
                        > Since you are talking with the 'General USe' tehtar
                        > mode, I think that Lindberg is correct here. The line
                        > underneath AFAIK is used in cases other than nasals
                        >
                        > > underneath. Tolkien seems to leave open the option
                        > > of using 21 and 22
                        > > for n and m, but I've never seen it done in
                        > > practice. I kind of like
                        > > that, and tried it for a while.
                        >
                        > This applies to Mode of Beleriand
                        >
                        [snip]

                        Thanks, Palatinus. After studying the version of /A Elbereth/ that
                        Danny sent (http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/message/5057),
                        made by Tolkien himself in the mode used at Imladris, I'm delighted to
                        find that it exhibits some of the tendencies I was already developing,
                        aside from the major difference of not using tehtar. The left swoop
                        under "g", the left curl at the top of "th" and "f", the ways adjacent
                        letters are sometimes connected, that sort of thing. I'm a little
                        disappointed at having to go with writing out vowels but I'm getting
                        used to it. I may have to embellish my melody to keep it from looking
                        too sparse above all those characters! :-)

                        David "Daeron" Finnamore
                        www.elvenminstrel.com
                      • Helge K. Fauskanger
                        ... the subtitle of the poem is given as Aerlinn in edhil o Imladris (translated by Helge Fauskanger as * Hymn of the Elves of Rivendell ). Yes, it must be
                        Message 11 of 12 , Dec 21, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Viktor Epp wrote:

                          > This is in fact supported by the text itself: In RGEO:70 (and back cover)
                          the subtitle of the poem is given as "Aerlinn in edhil o Imladris"
                          (translated by Helge Fauskanger as *"Hymn of the Elves of Rivendell").

                          Yes, it must be either "hymn" (aer-linn = holy-song) OR "sea-song", if
                          _aer_ here represents _aear_.

                          - HKF
                        • David J. Finnamore
                          ... cover) ... Well, it s not a sea-song, so it must be a holy song. The sea is mentioned, but only geographically. A longer version of it was sung by
                          Message 12 of 12 , Dec 23, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                            <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Viktor Epp wrote:
                            >
                            > > This is in fact supported by the text itself: In RGEO:70 (and back
                            cover)
                            > the subtitle of the poem is given as "Aerlinn in edhil o Imladris"
                            > (translated by Helge Fauskanger as *"Hymn of the Elves of Rivendell").
                            >
                            > Yes, it must be either "hymn" (aer-linn = holy-song) OR "sea-song", if
                            > _aer_ here represents _aear_.
                            >
                            > - HKF
                            >

                            Well, it's not a sea-song, so it must be a holy song. The sea is
                            mentioned, but only geographically. A longer version of it was sung
                            by Gildor's folk while walking at night under the trees and stars,
                            which are also mentioned in the text. Too bad it's only given in
                            English there. Formally, it's quite clearly a hymn, in the historical
                            meaning of the term: a song of praise.

                            David "Daeron" Finnamore
                            www.elvenminstrel.com
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.