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Beleriand mode

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  • David J. Finnamore
    Hello, all, I m a long-time Tolkien fan. Many of you have probably visited my website about music for Middle-earth. Just joined here, though, with my
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 17, 2005
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      Hello, all,

      I'm a long-time Tolkien fan. Many of you have probably visited my
      website about music for Middle-earth. Just joined here, though, with
      my interest in elvish script recently rekindled. I learned most of
      the basics in the mid 1990s, but other interests crowded it out for a
      while.

      I have a page about the name Daeron which includes a graphic of it
      spelled with Cirth, and another spelled with tengwar and tehtar. As I
      understand it, if Daeron of Doriath had written his name in ink, it
      would have been in the mode of Beleriand using tengwar for vowels. Is
      that correct? Would someone be so kind as to confirm that I have it
      right?
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/Beleriand-Daeron.gif

      Thank you.

      David "Daeron" Finnamore
    • Palatinus
      ... Hi David. I doubt you remember me... a few years ago we exchanged some mails about music. Doesn t matter, I remember and I am happy to hear from you again
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 17, 2005
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        > Hello, all,
        >
        > I'm a long-time Tolkien fan. Many of you have
        > probably visited my
        > website about music for Middle-earth. Just joined

        Hi David.

        I doubt you remember me... a few years ago we
        exchanged some mails about music. Doesn't matter, I
        remember and I am happy to hear from you again ;)

        > I have a page about the name Daeron which includes a
        > graphic of it
        > spelled with Cirth, and another spelled with tengwar
        > and tehtar. As I
        > understand it, if Daeron of Doriath had written his
        > name in ink, it
        > would have been in the mode of Beleriand using
        > tengwar for vowels. Is

        If we go according to strict history, I doubt that
        Daeron would write or even know tengwar. Some texts
        say that the runes were based on tengwar, but others
        say that they were invented before the Exile of the
        Noldor. But all this doesn't matter if you simply WANT
        the name written in MoB.

        > that correct? Would someone be so kind as to
        > confirm that I have it
        > right?

        It seems correct to me. At least it doesn't contradict
        any known rules






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      • David J. Finnamore
        Thank you, Palatinus! I m probably showing my ignorance, here, but there doesn t appear to be any conflict between the idea that the tengwar were invented
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 18, 2005
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          Thank you, Palatinus!

          I'm probably showing my ignorance, here, but there doesn't appear to
          be any conflict between the idea that the tengwar were invented prior
          to the exile, and the idea that the cirth were based on them. In the
          case of either or both, they could have been used by the Noldor in
          Beleriand. Clearly they were used by somebody in Beleriand or there
          would be no Beleriand mode. Why would we suppose that Thingol's
          courtiers would be ignorant of the manner of writing of surrounding
          people groups, whether they be elf, dwarf, or man? Does it say
          somewhere that the Grey Elves wrote by engraving but didn't write on
          parchment or whatever? I've read /The Silmarillion/ a few times, and
          the /Unfinished Tales/ a couple times. I don't remember anything that
          specific about the history of writing practices. Where do find out
          that kind of stuff?

          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Palatinus <elfiness@y...> wrote:
          >
          > > Hello, all,
          > >
          > > I'm a long-time Tolkien fan. Many of you have
          > > probably visited my
          > > website about music for Middle-earth. Just joined
          >
          > Hi David.
          >
          > I doubt you remember me... a few years ago we
          > exchanged some mails about music. Doesn't matter, I
          > remember and I am happy to hear from you again ;)
          >
          > > I have a page about the name Daeron which includes a
          > > graphic of it
          > > spelled with Cirth, and another spelled with tengwar
          > > and tehtar. As I
          > > understand it, if Daeron of Doriath had written his
          > > name in ink, it
          > > would have been in the mode of Beleriand using
          > > tengwar for vowels. Is
          >
          > If we go according to strict history, I doubt that
          > Daeron would write or even know tengwar. Some texts
          > say that the runes were based on tengwar, but others
          > say that they were invented before the Exile of the
          > Noldor. But all this doesn't matter if you simply WANT
          > the name written in MoB.
          >
          > > that correct? Would someone be so kind as to
          > > confirm that I have it
          > > right?
          >
          > It seems correct to me. At least it doesn't contradict
          > any known rules
          >
        • Palatinus
          ... The Grey Annals, or the Annals of Aman say that the runes were invented before the Exile. ... Yes, but by the Noldor :) I have always thought that it s
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 19, 2005
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            > I'm probably showing my ignorance, here, but there
            > doesn't appear to
            > be any conflict between the idea that the tengwar
            > were invented prior
            > to the exile, and the idea that the cirth were based
            > on them. In the

            The Grey Annals, or the Annals of Aman say that the
            runes were invented before the Exile.

            > case of either or both, they could have been used by
            > the Noldor in
            > Beleriand. Clearly they were used by somebody in
            > Beleriand or there
            > would be no Beleriand mode. Why would we suppose

            Yes, but by the Noldor :) I have always thought that
            it's called 'of Beleriand' because it started to
            develop after the Exile, in Beleriand

            > that Thingol's
            > courtiers would be ignorant of the manner of writing
            > of surrounding
            > people groups, whether they be elf, dwarf, or man?
            > Does it say
            > somewhere that the Grey Elves wrote by engraving but
            > didn't write on
            > parchment or whatever? I've read /The Silmarillion/

            I don't see any indication that the Sindar *did not*
            write in tengwar, but I take in account that Thingol
            banned the usage of Quenya in his kingdom. It's only
            logical to believe that he wouldn't make an exception
            on the matter of writing.

            What is for sure, is that the Grey Annals were writen
            in Runes.

            > Where do find out
            > that kind of stuff?

            HoMe






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          • David J. Finnamore
            ... Well, then, I guess it s time for Daeron to go HoMe. First I ve got to get those blasted movie images out of my mind to be sure I end up in the Tolkiens
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 20, 2005
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              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Palatinus <elfiness@y...> wrote:
              > > Where do find out
              > > that kind of stuff?
              >
              > HoMe

              Well, then, I guess it's time for Daeron to go HoMe. First I've got
              to get those blasted movie images out of my mind to be sure I end up
              in the Tolkiens' M-e, not Jackson's. Then click my heels together
              three times and say... no, wait, that was another story.

              OK, JIC. There's no place like HoMe, there's no place like...
            • Palatinus
              ... If you want my opinion, Jackson s M-e is different from Tolkien s only in story and facts. I don t think that visually the movies differ much from the M-e
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 21, 2005
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                > Well, then, I guess it's time for Daeron to go HoMe.
                > First I've got
                > to get those blasted movie images out of my mind to
                > be sure I end up
                > in the Tolkiens' M-e, not Jackson's. Then click my

                If you want my opinion, Jackson's M-e is different
                from Tolkien's only in story and facts. I don't think
                that visually the movies differ much from the M-e we
                all have in our minds (mostly inspired by Lee's and
                Howe's drawings)






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              • David J. Finnamore
                ... I think you re right. I ll reply direct since this is getting a little OT.
                Message 7 of 7 , Dec 21, 2005
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                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Palatinus <elfiness@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Well, then, I guess it's time for Daeron to go HoMe.
                  > > First I've got
                  > > to get those blasted movie images out of my mind to
                  > > be sure I end up
                  > > in the Tolkiens' M-e, not Jackson's. Then click my
                  >
                  > If you want my opinion, Jackson's M-e is different
                  > from Tolkien's only in story and facts. I don't think
                  > that visually the movies differ much from the M-e we
                  > all have in our minds (mostly inspired by Lee's and
                  > Howe's drawings)
                  >

                  I think you're right. I'll reply direct since this is getting a
                  little OT.
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