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Re: Another Tengwar Crack

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  • j_mach_wust
    Lucy wrote: ... ... As always, a very good transcription. The only mistake I ve found is the (first) u of _surround_ which you ve transcribed as if it were a
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 1, 2005
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      Lucy wrote:
      ...
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/calwen76/Jeff_verse.gif
      ...

      As always, a very good transcription.

      The only "mistake" I've found is the (first) u of _surround_ which
      you've transcribed as if it were a silent e.

      I'd also rather transcribe the plural ending -s of _cries_ with an
      s-hook, not with silme (esse is preferable to silme anyway), since all
      occurences of plural -s are transcribed with the hook, if I remember
      correctly.

      Minor lapses are the use of rómen instead of óre in _lord_ and the
      ommission of the a in _deliverance_.

      Possible variants would be a use of short carriers in the
      transcriptions of _my_ (or long carriers in the transcriptions of _o_,
      _me_, _into_), a use of esse nuquerna instead of esse in _gaze_, anto
      instead of súle in _with_ (a variant which Tolkien seemingly
      preferred), a transcription of the e in _cries_ with yanta instead of
      a seperate e-tehta, a transcription of the second e in _deliverance_
      with an e-tehta instead of a dot below.

      I hope I didn't make too many mistakes in pointing out mistakes. ;)

      ---------------------------
      j. 'mach' wust
      http://machhezan.tripod.com
      ---------------------------
    • hisilome
      ...
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 1, 2005
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        j. 'mach' wust wrote:

        > a transcription of the e in _cries_ with yanta instead of
        > a seperate e-tehta

        <<<What exactly do you mean here? i-tehta on short carrier plus yanta,
        or i-tehta on top of yanta? Where would either usage be attested? (I-
        tehta on top of yanta maybe based on analogy to the spelling of "ae" in
        the Michael Endorion dedication?)

        In DTS 5, Tolkien spelled "ie" in his own family name with i-tehta on
        short carrier plus "seperate" e-tetha on the following consonant, just
        as Lucy did. True, the "ie" in _Tolkien_ is pronounced differently from
        the one in _cries_, yet we're dealing with predominantly orthographic
        spelling here, anyway...>>>

        Greetings,

        Hisilome
      • j_mach_wust
        ... Yes, that s what I meant, the i-tehta on yanta, based on the Endorion dedication (DTS 62). ... ... Thanks for pointing that out, I wasn t aware of it when
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 2, 2005
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          Hisilome wrote:
          >
          > j. 'mach' wust wrote:
          >
          > > a transcription of the e in _cries_ with yanta instead of
          > > a seperate e-tehta
          >
          > <<<What exactly do you mean here? i-tehta on short carrier plus
          > yanta, or i-tehta on top of yanta? Where would either usage be
          > attested? (I-tehta on top of yanta maybe based on analogy to the
          > spelling of "ae" in the Michael Endorion dedication?)

          Yes, that's what I meant, the i-tehta on yanta, based on the Endorion
          dedication (DTS 62).

          > In DTS 5, Tolkien spelled "ie" in his own family name with i-tehta
          > on short carrier plus "seperate" e-tetha on the following consonant,
          > just as Lucy did. True, the "ie" in _Tolkien_ is pronounced
          > differently from the one in _cries_, yet we're dealing with
          > predominantly orthographic spelling here, anyway...>>>
          ...

          Thanks for pointing that out, I wasn't aware of it when I wrote that
          previous message. I agree that the pronunciation doesn't matter. I
          still think that a transcription with yanta may be an option, since it
          accords with what I've called a "general tencency" of having only one
          true vowel sign per syllable. Based on the transcription of "Reuel" I
          speculate proper names to be excepted from that tendency, allowing an
          even closer reproduction to traditional spelling which may be
          important in proper names – this would account for the use of separate
          vowel signs in the transcription of "Tolkien" in DTS 5. However, this
          speculation is based on very few data, like most assumptions on
          English tehtar modes.

          Then there might be a practical reason to favour the use of yanta in a
          transcription of "cries": If we use two seperate tehtar, this might
          require two separate carriers... Well, on a second thought, I've just
          noticed that this isn't true, since the e-tehta is preferably put on
          the s-hook of the ending and not on a separate carrier: quesse, rómen,
          carrier + i-tehta, attached s-hook + e-tehta.

          Either case, it's a tricky word.

          ---------------------------
          j. 'mach' wust
          http://machhezan.tripod.com
          ---------------------------
        • calwen76
          ... wrote: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/calwen76/Jeff_verse.gif ... Thank you, still no mistakeless though ... See the version 2.0 at the same
          Message 4 of 5 , Nov 2, 2005
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            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@y...>
            wrote:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/calwen76/Jeff_verse.gif
            > ...
            > As always, a very good transcription.

            Thank you, still no mistakeless though ... See the version 2.0 at the
            same link.

            > The only "mistake" I've found is the (first) u of _surround_ which
            > you've transcribed as if it were a silent e.

            Yeah, that's because I thought I could transcribe a silent U the same
            way as a silent E but obviously, it is not AFAIK attested, right? The
            same goes for the "silent" A in _deliverance_.

            > I'd also rather transcribe the plural ending -s of _cries_ with an
            > s-hook, not with silme (esse is preferable to silme anyway), since
            > all occurences of plural -s are transcribed with the hook, if I
            > remember correctly.

            Hum, correct(ed).

            > Minor lapses are the use of rómen instead of óre in _lord_

            Ayayay, these Rs drive me crazy...

            > and the ommission of the a in _deliverance_.

            See above.

            > Possible variants would be a use of short carriers in the
            > transcriptions of _my_ (or long carriers in the transcriptions of
            > _o_, _me_, _into_),

            I see your point (which is I suppose the length of a spelled vowel).
            It's more about my personal taste of distinguishing vowels and
            diphthongs... On the other hand, Tolkien himself transcribed _O_ (as
            a sigh) in a full mode as a twist over úre, maybe it could be done so
            here as well (I left this unrevised yet in the version 2.0), or fully
            transcribe _Oh_??

            > a use of esse nuquerna instead of esse in _gaze_,

            I don't remember what transcription I made it was exactly but since
            then (probably because someone here told me) I use silme / esse when
            there is a tehta to be transcribed above the tengwa but it is of
            course possible that I got it all wrong :)

            > anto instead of súle in _with_ (a variant which Tolkien
            > seemingly preferred),

            Oh, really? Didn't know that. What is the DTS?

            Anyway, thanks a lot for your points - very helpful indeed!

            Lucy
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