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Another Tengwar Crack

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  • calwen76
    Hello everyone, there it is, another request from Jeff who asked me to transcribe somthing for him... please, see the picture here:
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 1, 2005
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      Hello everyone,

      there it is, another request from Jeff who asked me to transcribe
      somthing for him... please, see the picture here:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/calwen76/Jeff_verse.gif

      I'd be happy to see your comments! :)

      Thanks,
      Lucy
    • j_mach_wust
      Lucy wrote: ... ... As always, a very good transcription. The only mistake I ve found is the (first) u of _surround_ which you ve transcribed as if it were a
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 1, 2005
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        Lucy wrote:
        ...
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/calwen76/Jeff_verse.gif
        ...

        As always, a very good transcription.

        The only "mistake" I've found is the (first) u of _surround_ which
        you've transcribed as if it were a silent e.

        I'd also rather transcribe the plural ending -s of _cries_ with an
        s-hook, not with silme (esse is preferable to silme anyway), since all
        occurences of plural -s are transcribed with the hook, if I remember
        correctly.

        Minor lapses are the use of rómen instead of óre in _lord_ and the
        ommission of the a in _deliverance_.

        Possible variants would be a use of short carriers in the
        transcriptions of _my_ (or long carriers in the transcriptions of _o_,
        _me_, _into_), a use of esse nuquerna instead of esse in _gaze_, anto
        instead of súle in _with_ (a variant which Tolkien seemingly
        preferred), a transcription of the e in _cries_ with yanta instead of
        a seperate e-tehta, a transcription of the second e in _deliverance_
        with an e-tehta instead of a dot below.

        I hope I didn't make too many mistakes in pointing out mistakes. ;)

        ---------------------------
        j. 'mach' wust
        http://machhezan.tripod.com
        ---------------------------
      • hisilome
        ...
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 1, 2005
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          j. 'mach' wust wrote:

          > a transcription of the e in _cries_ with yanta instead of
          > a seperate e-tehta

          <<<What exactly do you mean here? i-tehta on short carrier plus yanta,
          or i-tehta on top of yanta? Where would either usage be attested? (I-
          tehta on top of yanta maybe based on analogy to the spelling of "ae" in
          the Michael Endorion dedication?)

          In DTS 5, Tolkien spelled "ie" in his own family name with i-tehta on
          short carrier plus "seperate" e-tetha on the following consonant, just
          as Lucy did. True, the "ie" in _Tolkien_ is pronounced differently from
          the one in _cries_, yet we're dealing with predominantly orthographic
          spelling here, anyway...>>>

          Greetings,

          Hisilome
        • j_mach_wust
          ... Yes, that s what I meant, the i-tehta on yanta, based on the Endorion dedication (DTS 62). ... ... Thanks for pointing that out, I wasn t aware of it when
          Message 4 of 5 , Nov 2, 2005
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            Hisilome wrote:
            >
            > j. 'mach' wust wrote:
            >
            > > a transcription of the e in _cries_ with yanta instead of
            > > a seperate e-tehta
            >
            > <<<What exactly do you mean here? i-tehta on short carrier plus
            > yanta, or i-tehta on top of yanta? Where would either usage be
            > attested? (I-tehta on top of yanta maybe based on analogy to the
            > spelling of "ae" in the Michael Endorion dedication?)

            Yes, that's what I meant, the i-tehta on yanta, based on the Endorion
            dedication (DTS 62).

            > In DTS 5, Tolkien spelled "ie" in his own family name with i-tehta
            > on short carrier plus "seperate" e-tetha on the following consonant,
            > just as Lucy did. True, the "ie" in _Tolkien_ is pronounced
            > differently from the one in _cries_, yet we're dealing with
            > predominantly orthographic spelling here, anyway...>>>
            ...

            Thanks for pointing that out, I wasn't aware of it when I wrote that
            previous message. I agree that the pronunciation doesn't matter. I
            still think that a transcription with yanta may be an option, since it
            accords with what I've called a "general tencency" of having only one
            true vowel sign per syllable. Based on the transcription of "Reuel" I
            speculate proper names to be excepted from that tendency, allowing an
            even closer reproduction to traditional spelling which may be
            important in proper names – this would account for the use of separate
            vowel signs in the transcription of "Tolkien" in DTS 5. However, this
            speculation is based on very few data, like most assumptions on
            English tehtar modes.

            Then there might be a practical reason to favour the use of yanta in a
            transcription of "cries": If we use two seperate tehtar, this might
            require two separate carriers... Well, on a second thought, I've just
            noticed that this isn't true, since the e-tehta is preferably put on
            the s-hook of the ending and not on a separate carrier: quesse, rómen,
            carrier + i-tehta, attached s-hook + e-tehta.

            Either case, it's a tricky word.

            ---------------------------
            j. 'mach' wust
            http://machhezan.tripod.com
            ---------------------------
          • calwen76
            ... wrote: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/calwen76/Jeff_verse.gif ... Thank you, still no mistakeless though ... See the version 2.0 at the same
            Message 5 of 5 , Nov 2, 2005
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              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@y...>
              wrote:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/calwen76/Jeff_verse.gif
              > ...
              > As always, a very good transcription.

              Thank you, still no mistakeless though ... See the version 2.0 at the
              same link.

              > The only "mistake" I've found is the (first) u of _surround_ which
              > you've transcribed as if it were a silent e.

              Yeah, that's because I thought I could transcribe a silent U the same
              way as a silent E but obviously, it is not AFAIK attested, right? The
              same goes for the "silent" A in _deliverance_.

              > I'd also rather transcribe the plural ending -s of _cries_ with an
              > s-hook, not with silme (esse is preferable to silme anyway), since
              > all occurences of plural -s are transcribed with the hook, if I
              > remember correctly.

              Hum, correct(ed).

              > Minor lapses are the use of rómen instead of óre in _lord_

              Ayayay, these Rs drive me crazy...

              > and the ommission of the a in _deliverance_.

              See above.

              > Possible variants would be a use of short carriers in the
              > transcriptions of _my_ (or long carriers in the transcriptions of
              > _o_, _me_, _into_),

              I see your point (which is I suppose the length of a spelled vowel).
              It's more about my personal taste of distinguishing vowels and
              diphthongs... On the other hand, Tolkien himself transcribed _O_ (as
              a sigh) in a full mode as a twist over úre, maybe it could be done so
              here as well (I left this unrevised yet in the version 2.0), or fully
              transcribe _Oh_??

              > a use of esse nuquerna instead of esse in _gaze_,

              I don't remember what transcription I made it was exactly but since
              then (probably because someone here told me) I use silme / esse when
              there is a tehta to be transcribed above the tengwa but it is of
              course possible that I got it all wrong :)

              > anto instead of súle in _with_ (a variant which Tolkien
              > seemingly preferred),

              Oh, really? Didn't know that. What is the DTS?

              Anyway, thanks a lot for your points - very helpful indeed!

              Lucy
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