Re: spelling of diphthongs (again)
- Before I forget it: J. 'Mach' Wust, how _would_ you explain the unusual
spellings of _nainie_ and _caita_ in Namaarie? Just "boring" spelling
errors? Just curious if you have another theory...;-)
- Dave Hisilome wrote:
> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@y...>...
> > What messes things up is the transcription into LatinHowever small these differences are or not, they are significative.
> > letters that doesn't represent all the yanta letters in the same
> > way: Initial yanta is represented by i, but
> > second-part-of-diphthong yanta is represented by e. Don't tell me
> > these are different sounds. The /j/ in the word yes isn't
> > identical to the /j/ in the word boy either.
> <<<<<No, of course they are different.>>>>>
> <<<<<Yes, but _ai_ and _ui_ are spelled with anna. And I don't know
> if the second part of _ae_ and _ai_ are indeed identical to initial
> yanta as in _iorhael_ etc. Aren't the second sounds, the "glides",
> in all the four above diphthongs all rather similar to the sound
> represented by "y" in "boy", since you bring up that example?
> Tolkien himself somewhere stated, I think, that the difference
> between _ae_ and _ai_ in Sindarin was rather small. So why use anna
> in _ai_ and _ui_ and not yanta as well?
Sindarin /ae/ and /ai/ are different phonemes, since a minimal pair of
words may differ only in this sound (I don't know whether we know
acual minimal pairs).
> I don't think the secondHowever, they actually are the same in DTS 49.
> parts of _ai, ui_ correspond anymore to the "j" in "yes" (and thus
> the initial sound of _iorhael_) than the second parts of _ae, oe_,
> so Sindarin spelling is inconsistent in itself, not only in its
> So: if "boY" is different from "Yes" (which it is), and _Iorhael_ is
> identical to "Yes" (which it is), then I think _oE, aE_ cannot be
> the same as "Iorhael".
In "top-bottom" modes, any letter that is used for initial glides is
also used as a second element of diphthong.
j. 'mach' wust
- j 'mach' wust wrote:
> > So: if "boY" is different from "Yes" (which it is), and _Iorhael_<<<<<_Spelled_ the same way, yes...but _maybe_ in Sindarin (as in all
> > identical to "Yes" (which it is), then I think _oE, aE_ cannot be
> > the same as "Iorhael".
> However, they actually are the same in DTS 49.
living languages), not _everything_ that's spelled identically is
necessarily pronounced exactly the same way? I can only ask you
again: would you really pronounce the _i_ in _Iorhael_ exactly like
the _e_ in _Iorhael_? Personally, I find that hard to do. I also seem
to recall (sorry that I can't think of the exact source) that Tolkien
himself wrote something to the effect that diphthongs in -e are
pronounced similar to those in -i, only that instead of pronouncing a
quick "i" after the initial sound (as in "ai"), one should try to
pronounce a quick "e"--doesn't sound like the /j/ of "yes" (a
palatal) to me. :)>>>>>
>In "top-bottom" modes, any letter that is used for initial glides is<<<<<Hm. That sounds slightly but significantly different from your
>also used as a second element of diphthong.
previous wording, which left me with the impression that any letter
that is used for initial glides in TB modes is used for the _exact
same_ (or corresponding) sound as a second element of a diphthong.
The way you put it now, I have no problem with the statement.>>>>>