Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: spelling of diphthongs (again)

Expand Messages
  • hisilome
    Before I forget it: J. Mach Wust, how _would_ you explain the unusual spellings of _nainie_ and _caita_ in Namaarie? Just boring spelling errors? Just
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 4, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Before I forget it: J. 'Mach' Wust, how _would_ you explain the unusual
      spellings of _nainie_ and _caita_ in Namaarie? Just "boring" spelling
      errors? Just curious if you have another theory...;-)

      Hisilome
    • j_mach_wust
      ... However small these differences are or not, they are significative. Sindarin /ae/ and /ai/ are different phonemes, since a minimal pair of words may differ
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 4, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Dave Hisilome wrote:
        > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@y...>
        ...
        > > What messes things up is the transcription into Latin
        > > letters that doesn't represent all the yanta letters in the same
        > > way: Initial yanta is represented by i, but
        > > second-part-of-diphthong yanta is represented by e. Don't tell me
        > > these are different sounds. The /j/ in the word yes isn't
        > > identical to the /j/ in the word boy either.
        >
        > <<<<<No, of course they are different.>>>>>
        > <<<<<Yes, but _ai_ and _ui_ are spelled with anna. And I don't know
        > if the second part of _ae_ and _ai_ are indeed identical to initial
        > yanta as in _iorhael_ etc. Aren't the second sounds, the "glides",
        > in all the four above diphthongs all rather similar to the sound
        > represented by "y" in "boy", since you bring up that example?
        > Tolkien himself somewhere stated, I think, that the difference
        > between _ae_ and _ai_ in Sindarin was rather small. So why use anna
        > in _ai_ and _ui_ and not yanta as well?

        However small these differences are or not, they are significative.
        Sindarin /ae/ and /ai/ are different phonemes, since a minimal pair of
        words may differ only in this sound (I don't know whether we know
        acual minimal pairs).

        > I don't think the second
        > parts of _ai, ui_ correspond anymore to the "j" in "yes" (and thus
        > the initial sound of _iorhael_) than the second parts of _ae, oe_,
        > so Sindarin spelling is inconsistent in itself, not only in its
        > Romanization.
        > So: if "boY" is different from "Yes" (which it is), and _Iorhael_ is
        > identical to "Yes" (which it is), then I think _oE, aE_ cannot be
        > the same as "Iorhael".

        However, they actually are the same in DTS 49.

        In "top-bottom" modes, any letter that is used for initial glides is
        also used as a second element of diphthong.

        ---------------------------
        j. 'mach' wust
        http://machhezan.tripod.com
        ---------------------------
      • hisilome
        ...
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 4, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          j 'mach' wust wrote:
          > > So: if "boY" is different from "Yes" (which it is), and _Iorhael_
          >>is
          > > identical to "Yes" (which it is), then I think _oE, aE_ cannot be
          > > the same as "Iorhael".
          > >
          > However, they actually are the same in DTS 49.

          <<<<<_Spelled_ the same way, yes...but _maybe_ in Sindarin (as in all
          living languages), not _everything_ that's spelled identically is
          necessarily pronounced exactly the same way? I can only ask you
          again: would you really pronounce the _i_ in _Iorhael_ exactly like
          the _e_ in _Iorhael_? Personally, I find that hard to do. I also seem
          to recall (sorry that I can't think of the exact source) that Tolkien
          himself wrote something to the effect that diphthongs in -e are
          pronounced similar to those in -i, only that instead of pronouncing a
          quick "i" after the initial sound (as in "ai"), one should try to
          pronounce a quick "e"--doesn't sound like the /j/ of "yes" (a
          palatal) to me. :)>>>>>

          >In "top-bottom" modes, any letter that is used for initial glides is
          >also used as a second element of diphthong.

          <<<<<Hm. That sounds slightly but significantly different from your
          previous wording, which left me with the impression that any letter
          that is used for initial glides in TB modes is used for the _exact
          same_ (or corresponding) sound as a second element of a diphthong.
          The way you put it now, I have no problem with the statement.>>>>>

          Greetings,

          Hisilome
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.