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Re: [elfscript] Re: The Elvish word for brother

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  • Helge K. Fauskanger
    ... I wonder why I even bother to reply, and I ve been in no haste to do so, but here goes: Ed, if you have any good reason to assume that the plural forms of
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 11, 2005
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      I wrote:
      > In Sindarin, _Henair uirib_ could express "eternal brothers".

      "Laurifindil" (hello, Ed!) predictably responded:

      > No, no. Not in Sindarin... In Helgian Mish-Mash Neo-Sindarin please.

      I wonder why I even bother to reply, and I've been in no haste to do so,
      but here goes:

      Ed, if you have any good reason to assume that the plural forms of _hanar_
      "brother" (VT47:14) and _uireb_ "eternal" are NOT formed according to the
      normal patterns, we are all listening. If you will argue that the pl. of
      _hanar_ is not *_henair_ (cf. for instance _aran_ "king", pl. _erain_), I
      think the burden of evidence rests on you. You would have to presuppose
      some irregular form, which must be far more speculative than simply
      applying the rule derived from seemingly analogous examples.

      As for syntax, the "noun + adjective" pattern is so well attested that
      it's almost embarrassing to even cite an example, but consider for instance
      _i mbair annui_ "the lands western" in the King's Letter. If you want to
      make a big issue of the fact that the adjective _uireb_ (pl. *_uirib_)
      "eternal" is strictly speaking only attested in Noldorin as opposed to
      Sindarin proper, be my guest. But since the elements involved (derivatives
      of the root OY and the adjectival ending -eb) do appear in Sindarin proper
      as well, I think many observers would feel that this is a flimsy pretext
      for dismissing what I wrote as "Helgian Mish-Mash".

      I must say, Ed, that sometimes it would serve your general credibility
      better if you took the time to actually explain what you think is wrong (or
      at least overly speculative) about the translations offered. If you feel
      that direct Tolkienian authorship is the sole factor that can ever save any
      combination of Eldarin words from the status of "mish-mash", you are of
      course entitled to your opinion. But then we can never write out even the
      simplest phrase (of which _Henair uirib_ would be an example) if we thereby
      dare to imply that the result is, indeed, acceptable Eldarin. I do find it
      reasonable to assume that when a certain pattern of syntax is repeatedly
      observed in our material, it will actually work with other vocabulary items
      as well. This principle is after all the very foundation of any form of
      language properly so called, natural or invented.

      I strongly suspect that if I were to suggest that "the hill" translates
      into Sindarin as _i amon_, you would immediately dismiss this as
      "mish-mash" as well. For after all, the article followed by this exact noun
      is not directly attested in any published Tolkien manuscript...

      Do feel free to surprise me with a well-argued, non-aggressive reply, Ed.

      On the constructive and on-topic side: the guy who asked the original
      question may want to know that the following code will form the words
      _Henair uirib_ in any of the standard Tengwar fonts. This is written in the
      mode of Beleriand:

      9l6]Õ7 .Õ7`w

      - Helge Fauskanger
    • Gildor Inglorion
      ... I think Ed s position is more abstract, without having always some particular counter-reason to object. According to this, anything not attested is bound
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 11, 2005
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        > offered. If you feel
        > that direct Tolkienian authorship is the sole factor
        > that can ever save any
        > combination of Eldarin words from the status of
        > "mish-mash", you are of
        > course entitled to your opinion. But then we can

        I think Ed's position is more abstract, without having
        always some particular counter-reason to object.
        According to this, anything not attested is bound to
        be neo-Sindarin mish-mash without having an
        alternative for everything

        Think about this: some years ago, we had the
        neo-Sindarin word for name 'ess', based on Q esse. I
        don't remember Ed writing anything in particular
        against it, but he could, even without knowing the
        word eneth yet. What then? we could ask him if he has
        any alternatives, of course he wouldn't have, and we
        could remind to him how many S words are like their Q
        counterparts lacking the final vowel (of course,
        provided that the rest of phonology fits), the word
        'estathar' that points to a root ES (and not, say,
        **GES, causing it to be **gess), present cases where
        'ss' has been retained in both languages and hasn't
        been simplified in S as one 's'. Everything pointed to
        'ess', and Ed could not argue against it, apart from
        reminding that this is neo-Sindarin, but guess what,
        this failed.

        I can also remember the rule to which we hold since
        years, that adjectives are lenited, but Thornsten had
        just to simply point out all the attested cases, and
        they weren't more than the exceptions (eg. Ered
        Mithrin), posing then the question how could we
        establish such a rule.







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      • laurifindil
        ... please. ... do so, ... I know why... but I won t tell. It is not very proper. *LOL* Poor Helge... ejk
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 12, 2005
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          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
          <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
          > I wrote:
          > > In Sindarin, _Henair uirib_ could express "eternal brothers".
          >
          > "Laurifindil" (hello, Ed!) predictably responded:
          >
          > > No, no. Not in Sindarin... In Helgian Mish-Mash Neo-Sindarin
          please.
          >
          > I wonder why I even bother to reply, and I've been in no haste to
          do so,
          > but here goes:

          <snip stuff>

          I know why... but I won't tell. It is not very proper.
          *LOL*

          Poor Helge...

          ejk
        • laurifindil
          ... You can think , that is news to me. Really ? :) Mister Gildor when you think , you think _wrong_! All of yours is just a patheic game . Who cares? I
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 12, 2005
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            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...>
            wrote:
            > > offered. If you feel
            > > that direct Tolkienian authorship is the sole factor
            > > that can ever save any
            > > combination of Eldarin words from the status of
            > > "mish-mash", you are of
            > > course entitled to your opinion. But then we can
            >
            > I think Ed's position is more abstract


            You can "think", that is news to me. Really ? :)

            Mister Gildor when you "think", you think _wrong_!

            All of yours is just a "patheic game".

            Who cares? I don't.

            LOL

            ejk
          • Gildor Inglorion
            ... I also think that you didn t read my post. ___________________________________________________________ Χρησιμοποιείτε Yahoo!;
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 12, 2005
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              > You can "think", that is news to me. Really ? :)
              >
              > Mister Gildor when you "think", you think _wrong_!

              I also think that you didn't read my post.






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            • Carl F. Hostetter
              Gildor is right, Edouard. If you read what he actually wrote, you will see that he was defending your position against Helge s simplistic dismissal of it.
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 12, 2005
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                "Gildor" is right, Edouard. If you read what he actually wrote, you
                will see that he was defending your position against Helge's
                simplistic dismissal of it.

                (What IS it about the Internet that makes people fire off a reply
                before they've even understood what they are replying to?)


                On Jul 12, 2005, at 3:17 PM, Gildor Inglorion wrote:

                >> You can "think", that is news to me. Really ? :)
                >>
                >> Mister Gildor when you "think", you think _wrong_!
                >>
                >
                > I also think that you didn't read my post.
              • Helge K. Fauskanger
                ... Of course, there were no surprises whatsoever in Ed s actual reply...better kill off this thread before people get bored. I already am. - HKF
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 13, 2005
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                  I wrote:

                  > Do feel free to surprise me with a well-argued, non-aggressive reply, Ed.

                  Of course, there were no surprises whatsoever in Ed's actual reply...better
                  kill off this thread before people get bored. I already am.

                  - HKF
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