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ÈY´ìá: Re: [elfscript] Re: The Elvish word for brother

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  • laurifindil
    ... Yes, yes, I agree, I agree !!! ejk
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 4, 2005
      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "calwen76" <calwen.rudh@s...> wrote:
      > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...>
      > wrote:
      > > Btw Peter I am surprised that you use 'the latter the
      > > better' logic. Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment,
      > > tend to be against this policy, since there is no
      > > 'mature Quenya' and 'immature Qenya' like Helge used
      > > to say, and the language is ONE entity.
      >
      > Ehm, he's Patrick, not Peter...
      >
      > But, well, according to *my personal meaning about and understanding*
      > the VT47, page 34, note 51, Pengolodh's thoughts, I think that the
      > new names given there for sister and brother are 1) more associated
      > with the play and 2) connected to a blood-relationship of relatives.
      > Thus the words _toron, otorno_ (LR:394, entry TOR-) for 'sworn
      > brother, associate' can be considered as well, being another
      > expressions for 'brother' bearing a slightly different meaning. This
      > is seen in every single living language, isn't it.. But it isn't but
      > my impression of all the stuff around.
      >
      > Lucy

      Yes, yes, I agree, I agree !!!

      ejk
    • finsen@optusnet.com.au
      ... LOL!
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 4, 2005
        > > Btw Peter I am surprised that you use 'the latter the
        > > better' logic. Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment,
        > > tend to be against this policy, since there is no
        > > 'mature Quenya' and 'immature Qenya' like Helge used
        > > to say, and the language is ONE entity.
        >
        > For starters, the name is Patrick, not Peter! Hmm, then
        > again, maybe I should go with the latter: "and on this
        > Rock I will build my School of Tolkienian Linguistics..."
        > ;-)
        >

        LOL!
      • Helge K. Fauskanger
        ... Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment, tend to be against this policy, since there is no mature Quenya and immature Qenya like Helge used to say, and
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 5, 2005
          Gildor Inglorion wrote:

          > Btw [Patrick], I am surprised that you use 'the latter the better' logic.
          Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment, tend to be against this policy,
          since there is no 'mature Quenya' and 'immature Qenya' like Helge used to
          say, and the language is ONE entity.

          I don't think I spoke of "immature Quenya" very often (if at all). These
          days I tend to simply call the early variants "pre-classical", and the
          later variants are better termed "LotR-compatible" than "mature". (Actually
          some late ideas are not even LotR-compatible; nor are the late variants
          always compatible with one another, even if they are LotR-compatible.)

          As for _toron_ vs. _hαno, hanno_, I regard them simply as synonym words for
          "brother", but other things being equal, I would normally go for the latter
          (and later) forms.

          My suggestion would be _Hαnor/hannor tennoio_ in Quenya, with _Torni
          tennoio_ as an alternative if you are really fond of alliteration. In
          Sindarin, _Henair uirib_ could express "eternal brothers".

          - HKF
        • laurifindil
          ... wrote: ... No, no. Not in Sindarin... In Helgian Mish-Mash Neo-Sindarin please. ejk
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 5, 2005
            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
            <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:

            <snip>

            > In
            > Sindarin, _Henair uirib_ could express "eternal brothers".
            >

            No, no.
            Not in Sindarin...
            In Helgian Mish-Mash Neo-Sindarin please.

            ejk
          • Helge K. Fauskanger
            ... I wonder why I even bother to reply, and I ve been in no haste to do so, but here goes: Ed, if you have any good reason to assume that the plural forms of
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 11, 2005
              I wrote:
              > In Sindarin, _Henair uirib_ could express "eternal brothers".

              "Laurifindil" (hello, Ed!) predictably responded:

              > No, no. Not in Sindarin... In Helgian Mish-Mash Neo-Sindarin please.

              I wonder why I even bother to reply, and I've been in no haste to do so,
              but here goes:

              Ed, if you have any good reason to assume that the plural forms of _hanar_
              "brother" (VT47:14) and _uireb_ "eternal" are NOT formed according to the
              normal patterns, we are all listening. If you will argue that the pl. of
              _hanar_ is not *_henair_ (cf. for instance _aran_ "king", pl. _erain_), I
              think the burden of evidence rests on you. You would have to presuppose
              some irregular form, which must be far more speculative than simply
              applying the rule derived from seemingly analogous examples.

              As for syntax, the "noun + adjective" pattern is so well attested that
              it's almost embarrassing to even cite an example, but consider for instance
              _i mbair annui_ "the lands western" in the King's Letter. If you want to
              make a big issue of the fact that the adjective _uireb_ (pl. *_uirib_)
              "eternal" is strictly speaking only attested in Noldorin as opposed to
              Sindarin proper, be my guest. But since the elements involved (derivatives
              of the root OY and the adjectival ending -eb) do appear in Sindarin proper
              as well, I think many observers would feel that this is a flimsy pretext
              for dismissing what I wrote as "Helgian Mish-Mash".

              I must say, Ed, that sometimes it would serve your general credibility
              better if you took the time to actually explain what you think is wrong (or
              at least overly speculative) about the translations offered. If you feel
              that direct Tolkienian authorship is the sole factor that can ever save any
              combination of Eldarin words from the status of "mish-mash", you are of
              course entitled to your opinion. But then we can never write out even the
              simplest phrase (of which _Henair uirib_ would be an example) if we thereby
              dare to imply that the result is, indeed, acceptable Eldarin. I do find it
              reasonable to assume that when a certain pattern of syntax is repeatedly
              observed in our material, it will actually work with other vocabulary items
              as well. This principle is after all the very foundation of any form of
              language properly so called, natural or invented.

              I strongly suspect that if I were to suggest that "the hill" translates
              into Sindarin as _i amon_, you would immediately dismiss this as
              "mish-mash" as well. For after all, the article followed by this exact noun
              is not directly attested in any published Tolkien manuscript...

              Do feel free to surprise me with a well-argued, non-aggressive reply, Ed.

              On the constructive and on-topic side: the guy who asked the original
              question may want to know that the following code will form the words
              _Henair uirib_ in any of the standard Tengwar fonts. This is written in the
              mode of Beleriand:

              9l6]Õ7 .Õ7`w

              - Helge Fauskanger
            • Gildor Inglorion
              ... I think Ed s position is more abstract, without having always some particular counter-reason to object. According to this, anything not attested is bound
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 11, 2005
                > offered. If you feel
                > that direct Tolkienian authorship is the sole factor
                > that can ever save any
                > combination of Eldarin words from the status of
                > "mish-mash", you are of
                > course entitled to your opinion. But then we can

                I think Ed's position is more abstract, without having
                always some particular counter-reason to object.
                According to this, anything not attested is bound to
                be neo-Sindarin mish-mash without having an
                alternative for everything

                Think about this: some years ago, we had the
                neo-Sindarin word for name 'ess', based on Q esse. I
                don't remember Ed writing anything in particular
                against it, but he could, even without knowing the
                word eneth yet. What then? we could ask him if he has
                any alternatives, of course he wouldn't have, and we
                could remind to him how many S words are like their Q
                counterparts lacking the final vowel (of course,
                provided that the rest of phonology fits), the word
                'estathar' that points to a root ES (and not, say,
                **GES, causing it to be **gess), present cases where
                'ss' has been retained in both languages and hasn't
                been simplified in S as one 's'. Everything pointed to
                'ess', and Ed could not argue against it, apart from
                reminding that this is neo-Sindarin, but guess what,
                this failed.

                I can also remember the rule to which we hold since
                years, that adjectives are lenited, but Thornsten had
                just to simply point out all the attested cases, and
                they weren't more than the exceptions (eg. Ered
                Mithrin), posing then the question how could we
                establish such a rule.







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              • laurifindil
                ... please. ... do so, ... I know why... but I won t tell. It is not very proper. *LOL* Poor Helge... ejk
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 12, 2005
                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                  <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
                  > I wrote:
                  > > In Sindarin, _Henair uirib_ could express "eternal brothers".
                  >
                  > "Laurifindil" (hello, Ed!) predictably responded:
                  >
                  > > No, no. Not in Sindarin... In Helgian Mish-Mash Neo-Sindarin
                  please.
                  >
                  > I wonder why I even bother to reply, and I've been in no haste to
                  do so,
                  > but here goes:

                  <snip stuff>

                  I know why... but I won't tell. It is not very proper.
                  *LOL*

                  Poor Helge...

                  ejk
                • laurifindil
                  ... You can think , that is news to me. Really ? :) Mister Gildor when you think , you think _wrong_! All of yours is just a patheic game . Who cares? I
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 12, 2005
                    --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > > offered. If you feel
                    > > that direct Tolkienian authorship is the sole factor
                    > > that can ever save any
                    > > combination of Eldarin words from the status of
                    > > "mish-mash", you are of
                    > > course entitled to your opinion. But then we can
                    >
                    > I think Ed's position is more abstract


                    You can "think", that is news to me. Really ? :)

                    Mister Gildor when you "think", you think _wrong_!

                    All of yours is just a "patheic game".

                    Who cares? I don't.

                    LOL

                    ejk
                  • Gildor Inglorion
                    ... I also think that you didn t read my post. ___________________________________________________________ Χρησιμοποιείτε Yahoo!;
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 12, 2005
                      > You can "think", that is news to me. Really ? :)
                      >
                      > Mister Gildor when you "think", you think _wrong_!

                      I also think that you didn't read my post.






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                    • Carl F. Hostetter
                      Gildor is right, Edouard. If you read what he actually wrote, you will see that he was defending your position against Helge s simplistic dismissal of it.
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 12, 2005
                        "Gildor" is right, Edouard. If you read what he actually wrote, you
                        will see that he was defending your position against Helge's
                        simplistic dismissal of it.

                        (What IS it about the Internet that makes people fire off a reply
                        before they've even understood what they are replying to?)


                        On Jul 12, 2005, at 3:17 PM, Gildor Inglorion wrote:

                        >> You can "think", that is news to me. Really ? :)
                        >>
                        >> Mister Gildor when you "think", you think _wrong_!
                        >>
                        >
                        > I also think that you didn't read my post.
                      • Helge K. Fauskanger
                        ... Of course, there were no surprises whatsoever in Ed s actual reply...better kill off this thread before people get bored. I already am. - HKF
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 13, 2005
                          I wrote:

                          > Do feel free to surprise me with a well-argued, non-aggressive reply, Ed.

                          Of course, there were no surprises whatsoever in Ed's actual reply...better
                          kill off this thread before people get bored. I already am.

                          - HKF
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