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ÈÝìá: Re: [elfscript] Re: The Elvish word for brother

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  • calwen76
    ... Ehm, he s Patrick, not Peter... But, well, according to *my personal meaning about and understanding* the VT47, page 34, note 51, Pengolodh s thoughts, I
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 4, 2005
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      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...>
      wrote:
      > Btw Peter I am surprised that you use 'the latter the
      > better' logic. Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment,
      > tend to be against this policy, since there is no
      > 'mature Quenya' and 'immature Qenya' like Helge used
      > to say, and the language is ONE entity.

      Ehm, he's Patrick, not Peter...

      But, well, according to *my personal meaning about and understanding*
      the VT47, page 34, note 51, Pengolodh's thoughts, I think that the
      new names given there for sister and brother are 1) more associated
      with the play and 2) connected to a blood-relationship of relatives.
      Thus the words _toron, otorno_ (LR:394, entry TOR-) for 'sworn
      brother, associate' can be considered as well, being another
      expressions for 'brother' bearing a slightly different meaning. This
      is seen in every single living language, isn't it.. But it isn't but
      my impression of all the stuff around.

      Lucy
    • Patrick Wynne
      ... For starters, the name is Patrick, not Peter! Hmm, then again, maybe I should go with the latter: and on this Rock I will build my School of Tolkienian
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 4, 2005
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        On Jul 4, 2005, at 2:11 AM, Gildor Inglorion wrote:

        > Btw Peter I am surprised that you use 'the latter the
        > better' logic. Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment,
        > tend to be against this policy, since there is no
        > 'mature Quenya' and 'immature Qenya' like Helge used
        > to say, and the language is ONE entity.

        For starters, the name is Patrick, not Peter! Hmm, then
        again, maybe I should go with the latter: "and on this
        Rock I will build my School of Tolkienian Linguistics..."
        ;-)

        "Later" is not, of course, "better" in Tolkienian linguistics,
        "later" is merely "later" (I personaly find ALL the external
        chronological stages of Tolkien's languages of great
        interest). Yes, Q(u)enya is "one entity" in that Tolkien's
        writings from 1915 until his death show a constantly
        changing and evolving _continuum_ of concepts --
        but this of course does not mean that the later stages
        of that continuum do not exhibit features drastically
        different from the earlier stages. And when somebody
        wishes to compose an inscription in the style of Quenya
        as seen in _The Lord of the Rings_ (as is presumably
        the case with Mr. Varn), they would do well to bypass
        forms pre-dating LotR in favor of forms post-dating it,
        as the latter are more likely to be in stylistic accord with
        the published text. Similarly, somebody desiring to
        compose an inscription in the style of Qenya as seen
        in _The Book of Lost Tales_ would be wise to derive
        their vocabulary from the contemporary Qenya Lexicon
        rather than from the _Etymologies_ or _Quendi and
        Eldar_.

        -- Patrick H. Wynne



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Melroch 'Aestan
        ... Aldormon or Clifmon swa gifð þé mæst Wynne! ;-) -- /BP 8^) -- Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 4, 2005
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          Patrick Wynne skrev:


          > For starters, the name is Patrick, not Peter! Hmm, then
          > again, maybe I should go with the latter: "and on this
          > Rock I will build my School of Tolkienian Linguistics..."
          > ;-)

          Aldormon or Clifmon swa gifð þé mæst Wynne! ;-)

          --

          /BP 8^)>
          --
          Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
          A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
          __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
          \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
          / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
          / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /'Aestan ~\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
          /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
          Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
          ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
          || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
          "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
        • laurifindil
          ... Yes, yes, I agree, I agree !!! ejk
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 4, 2005
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            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "calwen76" <calwen.rudh@s...> wrote:
            > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...>
            > wrote:
            > > Btw Peter I am surprised that you use 'the latter the
            > > better' logic. Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment,
            > > tend to be against this policy, since there is no
            > > 'mature Quenya' and 'immature Qenya' like Helge used
            > > to say, and the language is ONE entity.
            >
            > Ehm, he's Patrick, not Peter...
            >
            > But, well, according to *my personal meaning about and understanding*
            > the VT47, page 34, note 51, Pengolodh's thoughts, I think that the
            > new names given there for sister and brother are 1) more associated
            > with the play and 2) connected to a blood-relationship of relatives.
            > Thus the words _toron, otorno_ (LR:394, entry TOR-) for 'sworn
            > brother, associate' can be considered as well, being another
            > expressions for 'brother' bearing a slightly different meaning. This
            > is seen in every single living language, isn't it.. But it isn't but
            > my impression of all the stuff around.
            >
            > Lucy

            Yes, yes, I agree, I agree !!!

            ejk
          • finsen@optusnet.com.au
            ... LOL!
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 4, 2005
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              > > Btw Peter I am surprised that you use 'the latter the
              > > better' logic. Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment,
              > > tend to be against this policy, since there is no
              > > 'mature Quenya' and 'immature Qenya' like Helge used
              > > to say, and the language is ONE entity.
              >
              > For starters, the name is Patrick, not Peter! Hmm, then
              > again, maybe I should go with the latter: "and on this
              > Rock I will build my School of Tolkienian Linguistics..."
              > ;-)
              >

              LOL!
            • Helge K. Fauskanger
              ... Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment, tend to be against this policy, since there is no mature Quenya and immature Qenya like Helge used to say, and
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 5, 2005
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                Gildor Inglorion wrote:

                > Btw [Patrick], I am surprised that you use 'the latter the better' logic.
                Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment, tend to be against this policy,
                since there is no 'mature Quenya' and 'immature Qenya' like Helge used to
                say, and the language is ONE entity.

                I don't think I spoke of "immature Quenya" very often (if at all). These
                days I tend to simply call the early variants "pre-classical", and the
                later variants are better termed "LotR-compatible" than "mature". (Actually
                some late ideas are not even LotR-compatible; nor are the late variants
                always compatible with one another, even if they are LotR-compatible.)

                As for _toron_ vs. _hαno, hanno_, I regard them simply as synonym words for
                "brother", but other things being equal, I would normally go for the latter
                (and later) forms.

                My suggestion would be _Hαnor/hannor tennoio_ in Quenya, with _Torni
                tennoio_ as an alternative if you are really fond of alliteration. In
                Sindarin, _Henair uirib_ could express "eternal brothers".

                - HKF
              • laurifindil
                ... wrote: ... No, no. Not in Sindarin... In Helgian Mish-Mash Neo-Sindarin please. ejk
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 5, 2005
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                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                  <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:

                  <snip>

                  > In
                  > Sindarin, _Henair uirib_ could express "eternal brothers".
                  >

                  No, no.
                  Not in Sindarin...
                  In Helgian Mish-Mash Neo-Sindarin please.

                  ejk
                • Helge K. Fauskanger
                  ... I wonder why I even bother to reply, and I ve been in no haste to do so, but here goes: Ed, if you have any good reason to assume that the plural forms of
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 11, 2005
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                    I wrote:
                    > In Sindarin, _Henair uirib_ could express "eternal brothers".

                    "Laurifindil" (hello, Ed!) predictably responded:

                    > No, no. Not in Sindarin... In Helgian Mish-Mash Neo-Sindarin please.

                    I wonder why I even bother to reply, and I've been in no haste to do so,
                    but here goes:

                    Ed, if you have any good reason to assume that the plural forms of _hanar_
                    "brother" (VT47:14) and _uireb_ "eternal" are NOT formed according to the
                    normal patterns, we are all listening. If you will argue that the pl. of
                    _hanar_ is not *_henair_ (cf. for instance _aran_ "king", pl. _erain_), I
                    think the burden of evidence rests on you. You would have to presuppose
                    some irregular form, which must be far more speculative than simply
                    applying the rule derived from seemingly analogous examples.

                    As for syntax, the "noun + adjective" pattern is so well attested that
                    it's almost embarrassing to even cite an example, but consider for instance
                    _i mbair annui_ "the lands western" in the King's Letter. If you want to
                    make a big issue of the fact that the adjective _uireb_ (pl. *_uirib_)
                    "eternal" is strictly speaking only attested in Noldorin as opposed to
                    Sindarin proper, be my guest. But since the elements involved (derivatives
                    of the root OY and the adjectival ending -eb) do appear in Sindarin proper
                    as well, I think many observers would feel that this is a flimsy pretext
                    for dismissing what I wrote as "Helgian Mish-Mash".

                    I must say, Ed, that sometimes it would serve your general credibility
                    better if you took the time to actually explain what you think is wrong (or
                    at least overly speculative) about the translations offered. If you feel
                    that direct Tolkienian authorship is the sole factor that can ever save any
                    combination of Eldarin words from the status of "mish-mash", you are of
                    course entitled to your opinion. But then we can never write out even the
                    simplest phrase (of which _Henair uirib_ would be an example) if we thereby
                    dare to imply that the result is, indeed, acceptable Eldarin. I do find it
                    reasonable to assume that when a certain pattern of syntax is repeatedly
                    observed in our material, it will actually work with other vocabulary items
                    as well. This principle is after all the very foundation of any form of
                    language properly so called, natural or invented.

                    I strongly suspect that if I were to suggest that "the hill" translates
                    into Sindarin as _i amon_, you would immediately dismiss this as
                    "mish-mash" as well. For after all, the article followed by this exact noun
                    is not directly attested in any published Tolkien manuscript...

                    Do feel free to surprise me with a well-argued, non-aggressive reply, Ed.

                    On the constructive and on-topic side: the guy who asked the original
                    question may want to know that the following code will form the words
                    _Henair uirib_ in any of the standard Tengwar fonts. This is written in the
                    mode of Beleriand:

                    9l6]Õ7 .Õ7`w

                    - Helge Fauskanger
                  • Gildor Inglorion
                    ... I think Ed s position is more abstract, without having always some particular counter-reason to object. According to this, anything not attested is bound
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 11, 2005
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                      > offered. If you feel
                      > that direct Tolkienian authorship is the sole factor
                      > that can ever save any
                      > combination of Eldarin words from the status of
                      > "mish-mash", you are of
                      > course entitled to your opinion. But then we can

                      I think Ed's position is more abstract, without having
                      always some particular counter-reason to object.
                      According to this, anything not attested is bound to
                      be neo-Sindarin mish-mash without having an
                      alternative for everything

                      Think about this: some years ago, we had the
                      neo-Sindarin word for name 'ess', based on Q esse. I
                      don't remember Ed writing anything in particular
                      against it, but he could, even without knowing the
                      word eneth yet. What then? we could ask him if he has
                      any alternatives, of course he wouldn't have, and we
                      could remind to him how many S words are like their Q
                      counterparts lacking the final vowel (of course,
                      provided that the rest of phonology fits), the word
                      'estathar' that points to a root ES (and not, say,
                      **GES, causing it to be **gess), present cases where
                      'ss' has been retained in both languages and hasn't
                      been simplified in S as one 's'. Everything pointed to
                      'ess', and Ed could not argue against it, apart from
                      reminding that this is neo-Sindarin, but guess what,
                      this failed.

                      I can also remember the rule to which we hold since
                      years, that adjectives are lenited, but Thornsten had
                      just to simply point out all the attested cases, and
                      they weren't more than the exceptions (eg. Ered
                      Mithrin), posing then the question how could we
                      establish such a rule.







                      ___________________________________________________________
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                    • laurifindil
                      ... please. ... do so, ... I know why... but I won t tell. It is not very proper. *LOL* Poor Helge... ejk
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 12, 2005
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                        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                        <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
                        > I wrote:
                        > > In Sindarin, _Henair uirib_ could express "eternal brothers".
                        >
                        > "Laurifindil" (hello, Ed!) predictably responded:
                        >
                        > > No, no. Not in Sindarin... In Helgian Mish-Mash Neo-Sindarin
                        please.
                        >
                        > I wonder why I even bother to reply, and I've been in no haste to
                        do so,
                        > but here goes:

                        <snip stuff>

                        I know why... but I won't tell. It is not very proper.
                        *LOL*

                        Poor Helge...

                        ejk
                      • laurifindil
                        ... You can think , that is news to me. Really ? :) Mister Gildor when you think , you think _wrong_! All of yours is just a patheic game . Who cares? I
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 12, 2005
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                          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > > offered. If you feel
                          > > that direct Tolkienian authorship is the sole factor
                          > > that can ever save any
                          > > combination of Eldarin words from the status of
                          > > "mish-mash", you are of
                          > > course entitled to your opinion. But then we can
                          >
                          > I think Ed's position is more abstract


                          You can "think", that is news to me. Really ? :)

                          Mister Gildor when you "think", you think _wrong_!

                          All of yours is just a "patheic game".

                          Who cares? I don't.

                          LOL

                          ejk
                        • Gildor Inglorion
                          ... I also think that you didn t read my post. ___________________________________________________________ Χρησιμοποιείτε Yahoo!;
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jul 12, 2005
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                            > You can "think", that is news to me. Really ? :)
                            >
                            > Mister Gildor when you "think", you think _wrong_!

                            I also think that you didn't read my post.






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                          • Carl F. Hostetter
                            Gildor is right, Edouard. If you read what he actually wrote, you will see that he was defending your position against Helge s simplistic dismissal of it.
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jul 12, 2005
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                              "Gildor" is right, Edouard. If you read what he actually wrote, you
                              will see that he was defending your position against Helge's
                              simplistic dismissal of it.

                              (What IS it about the Internet that makes people fire off a reply
                              before they've even understood what they are replying to?)


                              On Jul 12, 2005, at 3:17 PM, Gildor Inglorion wrote:

                              >> You can "think", that is news to me. Really ? :)
                              >>
                              >> Mister Gildor when you "think", you think _wrong_!
                              >>
                              >
                              > I also think that you didn't read my post.
                            • Helge K. Fauskanger
                              ... Of course, there were no surprises whatsoever in Ed s actual reply...better kill off this thread before people get bored. I already am. - HKF
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jul 13, 2005
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                                I wrote:

                                > Do feel free to surprise me with a well-argued, non-aggressive reply, Ed.

                                Of course, there were no surprises whatsoever in Ed's actual reply...better
                                kill off this thread before people get bored. I already am.

                                - HKF
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