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Re: The Elvish word for brother

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  • Patrick Wynne
    On Jul 2, 2005 Hansel Varn wrote, re various Quenya and ... I have to ask: why, if your interest in Tolkien s languages is so minimal, do you want to have
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 3, 2005
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      On Jul 2, 2005 Hansel Varn wrote, re various Quenya and
      Sindarin words for 'brother':

      > but I don't know which is what. I assume Q is Quenya
      > and S Sindarin
      >
      > Does it matter? I am bad at languages(failed German
      > oh so many times in high school) I am guessing that
      > Quenya is what is most common and used by the elves of
      > the LOTR trilogy. I may be wrong of course.

      I have to ask: why, if your interest in Tolkien's languages
      is so minimal, do you want to have "Brothers Forever"
      permanently embossed on your body _in Elvish_? I think
      the sentiment you and your brother want to express is
      touching, but why not express it in your native language?
      Wouldn't that be more meaningful and less faddish?

      </voice of reason>

      If you and your brother are determined to go with an Elvish
      inscription, the very latest (c. 1968) attested Quenya word
      for 'brother' found in Tolkien's published writings is _háno_
      (VT47:14, n. 22), which also had an affectionate form _hanno_
      (VT47:12). The Q. word for 'for ever' in the contemporary text
      _Cirion and Eorl_ is _tennoio_ (UT:305). So 'Brothers Forever'
      might be rendered in neo-Quenya as *_Hánor Tennoio_ or
      *_Hannor Tennoio_.

      I'll leave it to others more knowledgeabe to tell you how
      to render that in the standard _tengwar_ fonts (or to
      propose a rendering in neo-Sindarin).

      -- Patrick H. Wynne
    • Mel
      He *did* find some words - he sent them through. He wrote in asking for help. I didn t see anyone offer help, though. Just criticism.
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 3, 2005
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        He *did* find some words - he sent them through. He wrote in asking
        for help. I didn't see anyone offer help, though. Just criticism.






        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Wynne <pwynne@g...> wrote:
        > On Jul 2, 2005 Hansel Varn wrote, re various Quenya and
        > Sindarin words for 'brother':
        >
        > > but I don't know which is what. I assume Q is Quenya
        > > and S Sindarin
        > >
        > > Does it matter? I am bad at languages(failed German
        > > oh so many times in high school) I am guessing that
        > > Quenya is what is most common and used by the elves of
        > > the LOTR trilogy. I may be wrong of course.
        >
        > I have to ask: why, if your interest in Tolkien's languages
        > is so minimal, do you want to have "Brothers Forever"
        > permanently embossed on your body _in Elvish_? I think
        > the sentiment you and your brother want to express is
        > touching, but why not express it in your native language?
        > Wouldn't that be more meaningful and less faddish?
        >
        > </voice of reason>
        >
        > If you and your brother are determined to go with an Elvish
        > inscription, the very latest (c. 1968) attested Quenya word
        > for 'brother' found in Tolkien's published writings is _háno_
        > (VT47:14, n. 22), which also had an affectionate form _hanno_
        > (VT47:12). The Q. word for 'for ever' in the contemporary text
        > _Cirion and Eorl_ is _tennoio_ (UT:305). So 'Brothers Forever'
        > might be rendered in neo-Quenya as *_Hánor Tennoio_ or
        > *_Hannor Tennoio_.
        >
        > I'll leave it to others more knowledgeabe to tell you how
        > to render that in the standard _tengwar_ fonts (or to
        > propose a rendering in neo-Sindarin).
        >
        > -- Patrick H. Wynne
      • Patrick Wynne
        ... You didn t see anyone offer help ? Wow, did you even read my message? In your haste to snark at me you apparently overlooked the fact that I provided
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 3, 2005
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          On Jul 3, 2005, at 11:28 AM, Mel wrote:

          > He *did* find some words - he sent them through. He wrote in asking
          > for help. I didn't see anyone offer help, though. Just criticism.

          You "didn't see anyone offer help"? Wow, did you even read my
          message? In your haste to snark at me you apparently overlooked
          the fact that I provided Hansel with a proposed translation of the
          phrase he's interested in -- which nobody else has done thus far,
          and that includes YOU, Mel. I'd say that providing Hansel with what
          he asked for qualifies as "offering help", not "just criticism". Jeez.

          Yes, I know that Hansel did find some words. I read his post, remember?
          But the forms he cited were all from the _Etymologies_ (c. 1937) and
          predate _The Lord of the Rings_. The forms I cited are much later (c.
          1968)
          and very probably replaced the forms derived from the base TOR-
          'brother'
          in the _Etymologies_. Silly me, I thought that maybe Mr. Varn might be
          interested in having his tattoo inscription be as accurate as possible.

          -- Patrick H. Wynne


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Hansel Varn
          Wow, thanks for all the help folks this is a good start, and I have begun my research. Let me explain to those that think this is some whim of fadish
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 3, 2005
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            Wow, thanks for all the help folks this is a good
            start, and I have begun my research. Let me explain
            to those that think this is some whim of fadish
            expression. My friend and I are from completely
            opposite worlds practically, both racially,
            educationally, age, life experience etc. Yet we are
            as close as people can be. He is the Godfather to my
            two children and more importantly we both love LOTR,
            both film and books. I haven't read the books since I
            was 12(I m now 33) and since the films have rekindled
            my foundness I have started doing more reading into
            the works. I don't want anyone to think I'm some lazy
            fair weather fan that just didn't want to do the work.
            Believe me I'm reading a lot. I have recently been
            promoted to manager and lately haven't had much time
            on my hands hence the request. Hope this helps those
            who may wonder why? Thanks again for everyone's help,
            comments and even criticizms.
            --- Patrick Wynne <pwynne@...> wrote:

            > On Jul 3, 2005, at 11:28 AM, Mel wrote:
            >
            > > He *did* find some words - he sent them through.
            > He wrote in asking
            > > for help. I didn't see anyone offer help, though.
            > Just criticism.
            >
            > You "didn't see anyone offer help"? Wow, did you
            > even read my
            > message? In your haste to snark at me you apparently
            > overlooked
            > the fact that I provided Hansel with a proposed
            > translation of the
            > phrase he's interested in -- which nobody else has
            > done thus far,
            > and that includes YOU, Mel. I'd say that providing
            > Hansel with what
            > he asked for qualifies as "offering help", not "just
            > criticism". Jeez.
            >
            > Yes, I know that Hansel did find some words. I read
            > his post, remember?
            > But the forms he cited were all from the
            > _Etymologies_ (c. 1937) and
            > predate _The Lord of the Rings_. The forms I cited
            > are much later (c.
            > 1968)
            > and very probably replaced the forms derived from
            > the base TOR-
            > 'brother'
            > in the _Etymologies_. Silly me, I thought that maybe
            > Mr. Varn might be
            > interested in having his tattoo inscription be as
            > accurate as possible.
            >
            > -- Patrick H. Wynne
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > removed]
            >
            >




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          • Gildor Inglorion
            That s sweet. Btw Peter I am surprised that you use the latter the better logic. Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment, tend to be against this policy, since
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 4, 2005
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              That's sweet.

              Btw Peter I am surprised that you use 'the latter the
              better' logic. Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment,
              tend to be against this policy, since there is no
              'mature Quenya' and 'immature Qenya' like Helge used
              to say, and the language is ONE entity.

              > Wow, thanks for all the help folks this is a good
              > start, and I have begun my research. Let me explain
              > to those that think this is some whim of fadish
              > expression. My friend and I are from completely
              > opposite worlds practically, both racially,
              > educationally, age, life experience etc. Yet we are
              > as close as people can be. He is the Godfather to
              > my
              > two children and more importantly we both love LOTR,
              > both film and books. I haven't read the books since
              > I
              > was 12(I m now 33) and since the films have
              > rekindled
              > my foundness I have started doing more reading into
              > the works. I don't want anyone to think I'm some
              > lazy
              > fair weather fan that just didn't want to do the
              > work.
              > Believe me I'm reading a lot. I have recently been
              > promoted to manager and lately haven't had much time
              > on my hands hence the request. Hope this helps
              > those
              > who may wonder why? Thanks again for everyone's
              > help,
              > comments and even criticizms.







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            • calwen76
              ... Ehm, he s Patrick, not Peter... But, well, according to *my personal meaning about and understanding* the VT47, page 34, note 51, Pengolodh s thoughts, I
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 4, 2005
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                --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...>
                wrote:
                > Btw Peter I am surprised that you use 'the latter the
                > better' logic. Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment,
                > tend to be against this policy, since there is no
                > 'mature Quenya' and 'immature Qenya' like Helge used
                > to say, and the language is ONE entity.

                Ehm, he's Patrick, not Peter...

                But, well, according to *my personal meaning about and understanding*
                the VT47, page 34, note 51, Pengolodh's thoughts, I think that the
                new names given there for sister and brother are 1) more associated
                with the play and 2) connected to a blood-relationship of relatives.
                Thus the words _toron, otorno_ (LR:394, entry TOR-) for 'sworn
                brother, associate' can be considered as well, being another
                expressions for 'brother' bearing a slightly different meaning. This
                is seen in every single living language, isn't it.. But it isn't but
                my impression of all the stuff around.

                Lucy
              • Patrick Wynne
                ... For starters, the name is Patrick, not Peter! Hmm, then again, maybe I should go with the latter: and on this Rock I will build my School of Tolkienian
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 4, 2005
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                  On Jul 4, 2005, at 2:11 AM, Gildor Inglorion wrote:

                  > Btw Peter I am surprised that you use 'the latter the
                  > better' logic. Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment,
                  > tend to be against this policy, since there is no
                  > 'mature Quenya' and 'immature Qenya' like Helge used
                  > to say, and the language is ONE entity.

                  For starters, the name is Patrick, not Peter! Hmm, then
                  again, maybe I should go with the latter: "and on this
                  Rock I will build my School of Tolkienian Linguistics..."
                  ;-)

                  "Later" is not, of course, "better" in Tolkienian linguistics,
                  "later" is merely "later" (I personaly find ALL the external
                  chronological stages of Tolkien's languages of great
                  interest). Yes, Q(u)enya is "one entity" in that Tolkien's
                  writings from 1915 until his death show a constantly
                  changing and evolving _continuum_ of concepts --
                  but this of course does not mean that the later stages
                  of that continuum do not exhibit features drastically
                  different from the earlier stages. And when somebody
                  wishes to compose an inscription in the style of Quenya
                  as seen in _The Lord of the Rings_ (as is presumably
                  the case with Mr. Varn), they would do well to bypass
                  forms pre-dating LotR in favor of forms post-dating it,
                  as the latter are more likely to be in stylistic accord with
                  the published text. Similarly, somebody desiring to
                  compose an inscription in the style of Qenya as seen
                  in _The Book of Lost Tales_ would be wise to derive
                  their vocabulary from the contemporary Qenya Lexicon
                  rather than from the _Etymologies_ or _Quendi and
                  Eldar_.

                  -- Patrick H. Wynne



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Melroch 'Aestan
                  ... Aldormon or Clifmon swa gifð þé mæst Wynne! ;-) -- /BP 8^) -- Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 4, 2005
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                    Patrick Wynne skrev:


                    > For starters, the name is Patrick, not Peter! Hmm, then
                    > again, maybe I should go with the latter: "and on this
                    > Rock I will build my School of Tolkienian Linguistics..."
                    > ;-)

                    Aldormon or Clifmon swa gifð þé mæst Wynne! ;-)

                    --

                    /BP 8^)>
                    --
                    Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
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                    \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
                    / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
                    / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /'Aestan ~\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
                    /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
                    Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
                    ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
                    || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
                    "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
                  • laurifindil
                    ... Yes, yes, I agree, I agree !!! ejk
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 4, 2005
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                      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "calwen76" <calwen.rudh@s...> wrote:
                      > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > Btw Peter I am surprised that you use 'the latter the
                      > > better' logic. Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment,
                      > > tend to be against this policy, since there is no
                      > > 'mature Quenya' and 'immature Qenya' like Helge used
                      > > to say, and the language is ONE entity.
                      >
                      > Ehm, he's Patrick, not Peter...
                      >
                      > But, well, according to *my personal meaning about and understanding*
                      > the VT47, page 34, note 51, Pengolodh's thoughts, I think that the
                      > new names given there for sister and brother are 1) more associated
                      > with the play and 2) connected to a blood-relationship of relatives.
                      > Thus the words _toron, otorno_ (LR:394, entry TOR-) for 'sworn
                      > brother, associate' can be considered as well, being another
                      > expressions for 'brother' bearing a slightly different meaning. This
                      > is seen in every single living language, isn't it.. But it isn't but
                      > my impression of all the stuff around.
                      >
                      > Lucy

                      Yes, yes, I agree, I agree !!!

                      ejk
                    • finsen@optusnet.com.au
                      ... LOL!
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 4, 2005
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                        > > Btw Peter I am surprised that you use 'the latter the
                        > > better' logic. Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment,
                        > > tend to be against this policy, since there is no
                        > > 'mature Quenya' and 'immature Qenya' like Helge used
                        > > to say, and the language is ONE entity.
                        >
                        > For starters, the name is Patrick, not Peter! Hmm, then
                        > again, maybe I should go with the latter: "and on this
                        > Rock I will build my School of Tolkienian Linguistics..."
                        > ;-)
                        >

                        LOL!
                      • Helge K. Fauskanger
                        ... Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment, tend to be against this policy, since there is no mature Quenya and immature Qenya like Helge used to say, and
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 5, 2005
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                          Gildor Inglorion wrote:

                          > Btw [Patrick], I am surprised that you use 'the latter the better' logic.
                          Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment, tend to be against this policy,
                          since there is no 'mature Quenya' and 'immature Qenya' like Helge used to
                          say, and the language is ONE entity.

                          I don't think I spoke of "immature Quenya" very often (if at all). These
                          days I tend to simply call the early variants "pre-classical", and the
                          later variants are better termed "LotR-compatible" than "mature". (Actually
                          some late ideas are not even LotR-compatible; nor are the late variants
                          always compatible with one another, even if they are LotR-compatible.)

                          As for _toron_ vs. _hαno, hanno_, I regard them simply as synonym words for
                          "brother", but other things being equal, I would normally go for the latter
                          (and later) forms.

                          My suggestion would be _Hαnor/hannor tennoio_ in Quenya, with _Torni
                          tennoio_ as an alternative if you are really fond of alliteration. In
                          Sindarin, _Henair uirib_ could express "eternal brothers".

                          - HKF
                        • laurifindil
                          ... wrote: ... No, no. Not in Sindarin... In Helgian Mish-Mash Neo-Sindarin please. ejk
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jul 5, 2005
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                            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                            <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:

                            <snip>

                            > In
                            > Sindarin, _Henair uirib_ could express "eternal brothers".
                            >

                            No, no.
                            Not in Sindarin...
                            In Helgian Mish-Mash Neo-Sindarin please.

                            ejk
                          • Helge K. Fauskanger
                            ... I wonder why I even bother to reply, and I ve been in no haste to do so, but here goes: Ed, if you have any good reason to assume that the plural forms of
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jul 11, 2005
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                              I wrote:
                              > In Sindarin, _Henair uirib_ could express "eternal brothers".

                              "Laurifindil" (hello, Ed!) predictably responded:

                              > No, no. Not in Sindarin... In Helgian Mish-Mash Neo-Sindarin please.

                              I wonder why I even bother to reply, and I've been in no haste to do so,
                              but here goes:

                              Ed, if you have any good reason to assume that the plural forms of _hanar_
                              "brother" (VT47:14) and _uireb_ "eternal" are NOT formed according to the
                              normal patterns, we are all listening. If you will argue that the pl. of
                              _hanar_ is not *_henair_ (cf. for instance _aran_ "king", pl. _erain_), I
                              think the burden of evidence rests on you. You would have to presuppose
                              some irregular form, which must be far more speculative than simply
                              applying the rule derived from seemingly analogous examples.

                              As for syntax, the "noun + adjective" pattern is so well attested that
                              it's almost embarrassing to even cite an example, but consider for instance
                              _i mbair annui_ "the lands western" in the King's Letter. If you want to
                              make a big issue of the fact that the adjective _uireb_ (pl. *_uirib_)
                              "eternal" is strictly speaking only attested in Noldorin as opposed to
                              Sindarin proper, be my guest. But since the elements involved (derivatives
                              of the root OY and the adjectival ending -eb) do appear in Sindarin proper
                              as well, I think many observers would feel that this is a flimsy pretext
                              for dismissing what I wrote as "Helgian Mish-Mash".

                              I must say, Ed, that sometimes it would serve your general credibility
                              better if you took the time to actually explain what you think is wrong (or
                              at least overly speculative) about the translations offered. If you feel
                              that direct Tolkienian authorship is the sole factor that can ever save any
                              combination of Eldarin words from the status of "mish-mash", you are of
                              course entitled to your opinion. But then we can never write out even the
                              simplest phrase (of which _Henair uirib_ would be an example) if we thereby
                              dare to imply that the result is, indeed, acceptable Eldarin. I do find it
                              reasonable to assume that when a certain pattern of syntax is repeatedly
                              observed in our material, it will actually work with other vocabulary items
                              as well. This principle is after all the very foundation of any form of
                              language properly so called, natural or invented.

                              I strongly suspect that if I were to suggest that "the hill" translates
                              into Sindarin as _i amon_, you would immediately dismiss this as
                              "mish-mash" as well. For after all, the article followed by this exact noun
                              is not directly attested in any published Tolkien manuscript...

                              Do feel free to surprise me with a well-argued, non-aggressive reply, Ed.

                              On the constructive and on-topic side: the guy who asked the original
                              question may want to know that the following code will form the words
                              _Henair uirib_ in any of the standard Tengwar fonts. This is written in the
                              mode of Beleriand:

                              9l6]Õ7 .Õ7`w

                              - Helge Fauskanger
                            • Gildor Inglorion
                              ... I think Ed s position is more abstract, without having always some particular counter-reason to object. According to this, anything not attested is bound
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jul 11, 2005
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                                > offered. If you feel
                                > that direct Tolkienian authorship is the sole factor
                                > that can ever save any
                                > combination of Eldarin words from the status of
                                > "mish-mash", you are of
                                > course entitled to your opinion. But then we can

                                I think Ed's position is more abstract, without having
                                always some particular counter-reason to object.
                                According to this, anything not attested is bound to
                                be neo-Sindarin mish-mash without having an
                                alternative for everything

                                Think about this: some years ago, we had the
                                neo-Sindarin word for name 'ess', based on Q esse. I
                                don't remember Ed writing anything in particular
                                against it, but he could, even without knowing the
                                word eneth yet. What then? we could ask him if he has
                                any alternatives, of course he wouldn't have, and we
                                could remind to him how many S words are like their Q
                                counterparts lacking the final vowel (of course,
                                provided that the rest of phonology fits), the word
                                'estathar' that points to a root ES (and not, say,
                                **GES, causing it to be **gess), present cases where
                                'ss' has been retained in both languages and hasn't
                                been simplified in S as one 's'. Everything pointed to
                                'ess', and Ed could not argue against it, apart from
                                reminding that this is neo-Sindarin, but guess what,
                                this failed.

                                I can also remember the rule to which we hold since
                                years, that adjectives are lenited, but Thornsten had
                                just to simply point out all the attested cases, and
                                they weren't more than the exceptions (eg. Ered
                                Mithrin), posing then the question how could we
                                establish such a rule.







                                ___________________________________________________________
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                              • laurifindil
                                ... please. ... do so, ... I know why... but I won t tell. It is not very proper. *LOL* Poor Helge... ejk
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jul 12, 2005
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                                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                                  <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
                                  > I wrote:
                                  > > In Sindarin, _Henair uirib_ could express "eternal brothers".
                                  >
                                  > "Laurifindil" (hello, Ed!) predictably responded:
                                  >
                                  > > No, no. Not in Sindarin... In Helgian Mish-Mash Neo-Sindarin
                                  please.
                                  >
                                  > I wonder why I even bother to reply, and I've been in no haste to
                                  do so,
                                  > but here goes:

                                  <snip stuff>

                                  I know why... but I won't tell. It is not very proper.
                                  *LOL*

                                  Poor Helge...

                                  ejk
                                • laurifindil
                                  ... You can think , that is news to me. Really ? :) Mister Gildor when you think , you think _wrong_! All of yours is just a patheic game . Who cares? I
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jul 12, 2005
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                                    --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > > offered. If you feel
                                    > > that direct Tolkienian authorship is the sole factor
                                    > > that can ever save any
                                    > > combination of Eldarin words from the status of
                                    > > "mish-mash", you are of
                                    > > course entitled to your opinion. But then we can
                                    >
                                    > I think Ed's position is more abstract


                                    You can "think", that is news to me. Really ? :)

                                    Mister Gildor when you "think", you think _wrong_!

                                    All of yours is just a "patheic game".

                                    Who cares? I don't.

                                    LOL

                                    ejk
                                  • Gildor Inglorion
                                    ... I also think that you didn t read my post. ___________________________________________________________ Χρησιμοποιείτε Yahoo!;
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jul 12, 2005
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                                      > You can "think", that is news to me. Really ? :)
                                      >
                                      > Mister Gildor when you "think", you think _wrong_!

                                      I also think that you didn't read my post.






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                                    • Carl F. Hostetter
                                      Gildor is right, Edouard. If you read what he actually wrote, you will see that he was defending your position against Helge s simplistic dismissal of it.
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jul 12, 2005
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                                        "Gildor" is right, Edouard. If you read what he actually wrote, you
                                        will see that he was defending your position against Helge's
                                        simplistic dismissal of it.

                                        (What IS it about the Internet that makes people fire off a reply
                                        before they've even understood what they are replying to?)


                                        On Jul 12, 2005, at 3:17 PM, Gildor Inglorion wrote:

                                        >> You can "think", that is news to me. Really ? :)
                                        >>
                                        >> Mister Gildor when you "think", you think _wrong_!
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        > I also think that you didn't read my post.
                                      • Helge K. Fauskanger
                                        ... Of course, there were no surprises whatsoever in Ed s actual reply...better kill off this thread before people get bored. I already am. - HKF
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jul 13, 2005
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                                          I wrote:

                                          > Do feel free to surprise me with a well-argued, non-aggressive reply, Ed.

                                          Of course, there were no surprises whatsoever in Ed's actual reply...better
                                          kill off this thread before people get bored. I already am.

                                          - HKF
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