Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

The Elvish word for brother

Expand Messages
  • Hans Varn aka BaQuar
    I am looking for information on how to write the word brother in elvish. I have been reading some of the websites and my head is about to explode from so much
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 1, 2005
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      I am looking for information on how to write the word brother in
      elvish. I have been reading some of the websites and my head is about
      to explode from so much information. My brother and I want to get it
      tattoed on our arms but want to make sure it is correct. Any help
      would be appreciated email to my addy at yahoo or hvarn@...
      thanks
    • Hans Varn aka BaQuar
      ... about ... it ... Actually BROTHERS FOREVER is what I m looking for... again any input assistance advice is great
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 1, 2005
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Hans Varn aka BaQuar"
        <datastorm_usmc@y...> wrote:
        > I am looking for information on how to write the word brother in
        > elvish. I have been reading some of the websites and my head is
        about
        > to explode from so much information. My brother and I want to get
        it
        > tattoed on our arms but want to make sure it is correct. Any help
        > would be appreciated email to my addy at yahoo or hvarn@s...
        > thanks

        Actually BROTHERS FOREVER is what I'm looking for...

        again any input assistance advice is great
      • Gildor Inglorion
        since you ask for a translation in elvish , that means you haven t looked well enough :P anyway, question no 1: which language? Quenya or Sindarin? question
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 1, 2005
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          since you ask for a translation 'in elvish', that
          means you haven't looked well enough :P

          anyway, question no 1: which language? Quenya or
          Sindarin?

          question 2: what have you found so far and got you
          confused? didn't you find any words at all?

          > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Hans Varn aka
          > BaQuar"
          > <datastorm_usmc@y...> wrote:
          > > I am looking for information on how to write the
          > word brother in
          > > elvish. I have been reading some of the websites
          > and my head is
          > about
          > > to explode from so much information. My brother
          > and I want to get
          > it
          > > tattoed on our arms but want to make sure it is
          > correct. Any help
          > > would be appreciated email to my addy at yahoo or
          > hvarn@s...
          > > thanks
          >
          > Actually BROTHERS FOREVER is what I'm looking for...
          >
          > again any input assistance advice is great
          >
          >
          >







          ___________________________________________________________
          Χρησιμοποιείτε Yahoo!;
          Βαρεθήκατε τα ενοχλητικά μηνύματα (spam); Το Yahoo! Mail
          διαθέτει την καλύτερη δυνατή προστασία κατά των ενοχλητικών
          μηνυμάτων http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr
        • Hansel Varn
          Well I found these... brother Q toron, onóro S gwanur, gwador, muindor, tór brother (sworn) Q otorno brotherhood Q otornasse but I don t know which is what.
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 2, 2005
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            Well I found these...
            brother Q toron, onóro S gwanur, gwador, muindor, tór
            brother (sworn) Q otorno
            brotherhood Q otornasse

            but I don't know which is what. I assume Q is Quenya
            and S Sindarin

            Does it matter? I am bad at languages(failed German
            oh so many times in high school) I am guessing that
            Quenya is what is most common and used by the elves of
            the LOTR trilogy. I may be wrong of course. Thanks
            for responding. If you know of any web resources that
            can clarify anything let me know. Thanks again.



            ____________________________________________________
            Yahoo! Sports
            Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
            http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
          • Hansel Varn
            Well I found these... brother Q toron, onóro S gwanur, gwador, muindor, tór brother (sworn) Q otorno brotherhood Q otornasse but I don t know which is what.
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 2, 2005
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              Well I found these...
              brother Q toron, onóro S gwanur, gwador, muindor, tór
              brother (sworn) Q otorno
              brotherhood Q otornasse

              but I don't know which is what. I assume Q is Quenya
              and S Sindarin

              Does it matter? I am bad at languages(failed German
              oh so many times in high school) I am guessing that
              Quenya is what is most common and used by the elves of
              the LOTR trilogy. I may be wrong of course. Thanks
              for responding. If you know of any web resources that
              can clarify anything let me know. Thanks again.

              --- Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@...> wrote:

              > since you ask for a translation 'in elvish', that
              > means you haven't looked well enough :P
              >
              > anyway, question no 1: which language? Quenya or
              > Sindarin?
              >
              > question 2: what have you found so far and got you
              > confused? didn't you find any words at all?
              >
              > > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Hans Varn aka
              > > BaQuar"
              > > <datastorm_usmc@y...> wrote:
              > > > I am looking for information on how to write the
              > > word brother in
              > > > elvish. I have been reading some of the
              > websites
              > > and my head is
              > > about
              > > > to explode from so much information. My brother
              > > and I want to get
              > > it
              > > > tattoed on our arms but want to make sure it is
              > > correct. Any help
              > > > would be appreciated email to my addy at yahoo
              > or
              > > hvarn@s...
              > > > thanks
              > >
              > > Actually BROTHERS FOREVER is what I'm looking
              > for...
              > >
              > > again any input assistance advice is great
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              ___________________________________________________________
              >
              > ×ñçóéìïðïéåßôå Yahoo!;
              > ÂáñåèÞêáôå ôá åíï÷ëçôéêÜ ìçíýìáôá (spam); Ôï Yahoo!
              > Mail
              > äéáèÝôåé ôçí êáëýôåñç äõíáôÞ ðñïóôáóßá êáôÜ ôùí
              > åíï÷ëçôéêþí
              > ìçíõìÜôùí
              > http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr
              >
              >
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to:
              > elfscript@...
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              > elfscript-unsubscribe@...
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              > elfscript-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >




              __________________________________
              Yahoo! Mail
              Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
              http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
            • Patrick Wynne
              On Jul 2, 2005 Hansel Varn wrote, re various Quenya and ... I have to ask: why, if your interest in Tolkien s languages is so minimal, do you want to have
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 3, 2005
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                On Jul 2, 2005 Hansel Varn wrote, re various Quenya and
                Sindarin words for 'brother':

                > but I don't know which is what. I assume Q is Quenya
                > and S Sindarin
                >
                > Does it matter? I am bad at languages(failed German
                > oh so many times in high school) I am guessing that
                > Quenya is what is most common and used by the elves of
                > the LOTR trilogy. I may be wrong of course.

                I have to ask: why, if your interest in Tolkien's languages
                is so minimal, do you want to have "Brothers Forever"
                permanently embossed on your body _in Elvish_? I think
                the sentiment you and your brother want to express is
                touching, but why not express it in your native language?
                Wouldn't that be more meaningful and less faddish?

                </voice of reason>

                If you and your brother are determined to go with an Elvish
                inscription, the very latest (c. 1968) attested Quenya word
                for 'brother' found in Tolkien's published writings is _háno_
                (VT47:14, n. 22), which also had an affectionate form _hanno_
                (VT47:12). The Q. word for 'for ever' in the contemporary text
                _Cirion and Eorl_ is _tennoio_ (UT:305). So 'Brothers Forever'
                might be rendered in neo-Quenya as *_Hánor Tennoio_ or
                *_Hannor Tennoio_.

                I'll leave it to others more knowledgeabe to tell you how
                to render that in the standard _tengwar_ fonts (or to
                propose a rendering in neo-Sindarin).

                -- Patrick H. Wynne
              • Mel
                He *did* find some words - he sent them through. He wrote in asking for help. I didn t see anyone offer help, though. Just criticism.
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 3, 2005
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  He *did* find some words - he sent them through. He wrote in asking
                  for help. I didn't see anyone offer help, though. Just criticism.






                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Wynne <pwynne@g...> wrote:
                  > On Jul 2, 2005 Hansel Varn wrote, re various Quenya and
                  > Sindarin words for 'brother':
                  >
                  > > but I don't know which is what. I assume Q is Quenya
                  > > and S Sindarin
                  > >
                  > > Does it matter? I am bad at languages(failed German
                  > > oh so many times in high school) I am guessing that
                  > > Quenya is what is most common and used by the elves of
                  > > the LOTR trilogy. I may be wrong of course.
                  >
                  > I have to ask: why, if your interest in Tolkien's languages
                  > is so minimal, do you want to have "Brothers Forever"
                  > permanently embossed on your body _in Elvish_? I think
                  > the sentiment you and your brother want to express is
                  > touching, but why not express it in your native language?
                  > Wouldn't that be more meaningful and less faddish?
                  >
                  > </voice of reason>
                  >
                  > If you and your brother are determined to go with an Elvish
                  > inscription, the very latest (c. 1968) attested Quenya word
                  > for 'brother' found in Tolkien's published writings is _háno_
                  > (VT47:14, n. 22), which also had an affectionate form _hanno_
                  > (VT47:12). The Q. word for 'for ever' in the contemporary text
                  > _Cirion and Eorl_ is _tennoio_ (UT:305). So 'Brothers Forever'
                  > might be rendered in neo-Quenya as *_Hánor Tennoio_ or
                  > *_Hannor Tennoio_.
                  >
                  > I'll leave it to others more knowledgeabe to tell you how
                  > to render that in the standard _tengwar_ fonts (or to
                  > propose a rendering in neo-Sindarin).
                  >
                  > -- Patrick H. Wynne
                • Patrick Wynne
                  ... You didn t see anyone offer help ? Wow, did you even read my message? In your haste to snark at me you apparently overlooked the fact that I provided
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 3, 2005
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Jul 3, 2005, at 11:28 AM, Mel wrote:

                    > He *did* find some words - he sent them through. He wrote in asking
                    > for help. I didn't see anyone offer help, though. Just criticism.

                    You "didn't see anyone offer help"? Wow, did you even read my
                    message? In your haste to snark at me you apparently overlooked
                    the fact that I provided Hansel with a proposed translation of the
                    phrase he's interested in -- which nobody else has done thus far,
                    and that includes YOU, Mel. I'd say that providing Hansel with what
                    he asked for qualifies as "offering help", not "just criticism". Jeez.

                    Yes, I know that Hansel did find some words. I read his post, remember?
                    But the forms he cited were all from the _Etymologies_ (c. 1937) and
                    predate _The Lord of the Rings_. The forms I cited are much later (c.
                    1968)
                    and very probably replaced the forms derived from the base TOR-
                    'brother'
                    in the _Etymologies_. Silly me, I thought that maybe Mr. Varn might be
                    interested in having his tattoo inscription be as accurate as possible.

                    -- Patrick H. Wynne


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Hansel Varn
                    Wow, thanks for all the help folks this is a good start, and I have begun my research. Let me explain to those that think this is some whim of fadish
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 3, 2005
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Wow, thanks for all the help folks this is a good
                      start, and I have begun my research. Let me explain
                      to those that think this is some whim of fadish
                      expression. My friend and I are from completely
                      opposite worlds practically, both racially,
                      educationally, age, life experience etc. Yet we are
                      as close as people can be. He is the Godfather to my
                      two children and more importantly we both love LOTR,
                      both film and books. I haven't read the books since I
                      was 12(I m now 33) and since the films have rekindled
                      my foundness I have started doing more reading into
                      the works. I don't want anyone to think I'm some lazy
                      fair weather fan that just didn't want to do the work.
                      Believe me I'm reading a lot. I have recently been
                      promoted to manager and lately haven't had much time
                      on my hands hence the request. Hope this helps those
                      who may wonder why? Thanks again for everyone's help,
                      comments and even criticizms.
                      --- Patrick Wynne <pwynne@...> wrote:

                      > On Jul 3, 2005, at 11:28 AM, Mel wrote:
                      >
                      > > He *did* find some words - he sent them through.
                      > He wrote in asking
                      > > for help. I didn't see anyone offer help, though.
                      > Just criticism.
                      >
                      > You "didn't see anyone offer help"? Wow, did you
                      > even read my
                      > message? In your haste to snark at me you apparently
                      > overlooked
                      > the fact that I provided Hansel with a proposed
                      > translation of the
                      > phrase he's interested in -- which nobody else has
                      > done thus far,
                      > and that includes YOU, Mel. I'd say that providing
                      > Hansel with what
                      > he asked for qualifies as "offering help", not "just
                      > criticism". Jeez.
                      >
                      > Yes, I know that Hansel did find some words. I read
                      > his post, remember?
                      > But the forms he cited were all from the
                      > _Etymologies_ (c. 1937) and
                      > predate _The Lord of the Rings_. The forms I cited
                      > are much later (c.
                      > 1968)
                      > and very probably replaced the forms derived from
                      > the base TOR-
                      > 'brother'
                      > in the _Etymologies_. Silly me, I thought that maybe
                      > Mr. Varn might be
                      > interested in having his tattoo inscription be as
                      > accurate as possible.
                      >
                      > -- Patrick H. Wynne
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      > removed]
                      >
                      >




                      ____________________________________________________
                      Yahoo! Sports
                      Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
                      http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
                    • Gildor Inglorion
                      That s sweet. Btw Peter I am surprised that you use the latter the better logic. Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment, tend to be against this policy, since
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 4, 2005
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        That's sweet.

                        Btw Peter I am surprised that you use 'the latter the
                        better' logic. Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment,
                        tend to be against this policy, since there is no
                        'mature Quenya' and 'immature Qenya' like Helge used
                        to say, and the language is ONE entity.

                        > Wow, thanks for all the help folks this is a good
                        > start, and I have begun my research. Let me explain
                        > to those that think this is some whim of fadish
                        > expression. My friend and I are from completely
                        > opposite worlds practically, both racially,
                        > educationally, age, life experience etc. Yet we are
                        > as close as people can be. He is the Godfather to
                        > my
                        > two children and more importantly we both love LOTR,
                        > both film and books. I haven't read the books since
                        > I
                        > was 12(I m now 33) and since the films have
                        > rekindled
                        > my foundness I have started doing more reading into
                        > the works. I don't want anyone to think I'm some
                        > lazy
                        > fair weather fan that just didn't want to do the
                        > work.
                        > Believe me I'm reading a lot. I have recently been
                        > promoted to manager and lately haven't had much time
                        > on my hands hence the request. Hope this helps
                        > those
                        > who may wonder why? Thanks again for everyone's
                        > help,
                        > comments and even criticizms.







                        ___________________________________________________________
                        Χρησιμοποιείτε Yahoo!;
                        Βαρεθήκατε τα ενοχλητικά μηνύματα (spam); Το Yahoo! Mail
                        διαθέτει την καλύτερη δυνατή προστασία κατά των ενοχλητικών
                        μηνυμάτων http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr
                      • calwen76
                        ... Ehm, he s Patrick, not Peter... But, well, according to *my personal meaning about and understanding* the VT47, page 34, note 51, Pengolodh s thoughts, I
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 4, 2005
                        View Source
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > Btw Peter I am surprised that you use 'the latter the
                          > better' logic. Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment,
                          > tend to be against this policy, since there is no
                          > 'mature Quenya' and 'immature Qenya' like Helge used
                          > to say, and the language is ONE entity.

                          Ehm, he's Patrick, not Peter...

                          But, well, according to *my personal meaning about and understanding*
                          the VT47, page 34, note 51, Pengolodh's thoughts, I think that the
                          new names given there for sister and brother are 1) more associated
                          with the play and 2) connected to a blood-relationship of relatives.
                          Thus the words _toron, otorno_ (LR:394, entry TOR-) for 'sworn
                          brother, associate' can be considered as well, being another
                          expressions for 'brother' bearing a slightly different meaning. This
                          is seen in every single living language, isn't it.. But it isn't but
                          my impression of all the stuff around.

                          Lucy
                        • Patrick Wynne
                          ... For starters, the name is Patrick, not Peter! Hmm, then again, maybe I should go with the latter: and on this Rock I will build my School of Tolkienian
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jul 4, 2005
                          View Source
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On Jul 4, 2005, at 2:11 AM, Gildor Inglorion wrote:

                            > Btw Peter I am surprised that you use 'the latter the
                            > better' logic. Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment,
                            > tend to be against this policy, since there is no
                            > 'mature Quenya' and 'immature Qenya' like Helge used
                            > to say, and the language is ONE entity.

                            For starters, the name is Patrick, not Peter! Hmm, then
                            again, maybe I should go with the latter: "and on this
                            Rock I will build my School of Tolkienian Linguistics..."
                            ;-)

                            "Later" is not, of course, "better" in Tolkienian linguistics,
                            "later" is merely "later" (I personaly find ALL the external
                            chronological stages of Tolkien's languages of great
                            interest). Yes, Q(u)enya is "one entity" in that Tolkien's
                            writings from 1915 until his death show a constantly
                            changing and evolving _continuum_ of concepts --
                            but this of course does not mean that the later stages
                            of that continuum do not exhibit features drastically
                            different from the earlier stages. And when somebody
                            wishes to compose an inscription in the style of Quenya
                            as seen in _The Lord of the Rings_ (as is presumably
                            the case with Mr. Varn), they would do well to bypass
                            forms pre-dating LotR in favor of forms post-dating it,
                            as the latter are more likely to be in stylistic accord with
                            the published text. Similarly, somebody desiring to
                            compose an inscription in the style of Qenya as seen
                            in _The Book of Lost Tales_ would be wise to derive
                            their vocabulary from the contemporary Qenya Lexicon
                            rather than from the _Etymologies_ or _Quendi and
                            Eldar_.

                            -- Patrick H. Wynne



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Melroch 'Aestan
                            ... Aldormon or Clifmon swa gifð þé mæst Wynne! ;-) -- /BP 8^) -- Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jul 4, 2005
                            View Source
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Patrick Wynne skrev:


                              > For starters, the name is Patrick, not Peter! Hmm, then
                              > again, maybe I should go with the latter: "and on this
                              > Rock I will build my School of Tolkienian Linguistics..."
                              > ;-)

                              Aldormon or Clifmon swa gifð þé mæst Wynne! ;-)

                              --

                              /BP 8^)>
                              --
                              Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                              A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
                              __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
                              \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
                              / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
                              / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /'Aestan ~\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
                              /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
                              Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
                              ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
                              || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
                              "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
                            • laurifindil
                              ... Yes, yes, I agree, I agree !!! ejk
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jul 4, 2005
                              View Source
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "calwen76" <calwen.rudh@s...> wrote:
                                > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...>
                                > wrote:
                                > > Btw Peter I am surprised that you use 'the latter the
                                > > better' logic. Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment,
                                > > tend to be against this policy, since there is no
                                > > 'mature Quenya' and 'immature Qenya' like Helge used
                                > > to say, and the language is ONE entity.
                                >
                                > Ehm, he's Patrick, not Peter...
                                >
                                > But, well, according to *my personal meaning about and understanding*
                                > the VT47, page 34, note 51, Pengolodh's thoughts, I think that the
                                > new names given there for sister and brother are 1) more associated
                                > with the play and 2) connected to a blood-relationship of relatives.
                                > Thus the words _toron, otorno_ (LR:394, entry TOR-) for 'sworn
                                > brother, associate' can be considered as well, being another
                                > expressions for 'brother' bearing a slightly different meaning. This
                                > is seen in every single living language, isn't it.. But it isn't but
                                > my impression of all the stuff around.
                                >
                                > Lucy

                                Yes, yes, I agree, I agree !!!

                                ejk
                              • finsen@optusnet.com.au
                                ... LOL!
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jul 4, 2005
                                View Source
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  > > Btw Peter I am surprised that you use 'the latter the
                                  > > better' logic. Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment,
                                  > > tend to be against this policy, since there is no
                                  > > 'mature Quenya' and 'immature Qenya' like Helge used
                                  > > to say, and the language is ONE entity.
                                  >
                                  > For starters, the name is Patrick, not Peter! Hmm, then
                                  > again, maybe I should go with the latter: "and on this
                                  > Rock I will build my School of Tolkienian Linguistics..."
                                  > ;-)
                                  >

                                  LOL!
                                • Helge K. Fauskanger
                                  ... Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment, tend to be against this policy, since there is no mature Quenya and immature Qenya like Helge used to say, and
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jul 5, 2005
                                  View Source
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Gildor Inglorion wrote:

                                    > Btw [Patrick], I am surprised that you use 'the latter the better' logic.
                                    Most people of.. uhm.. your alignment, tend to be against this policy,
                                    since there is no 'mature Quenya' and 'immature Qenya' like Helge used to
                                    say, and the language is ONE entity.

                                    I don't think I spoke of "immature Quenya" very often (if at all). These
                                    days I tend to simply call the early variants "pre-classical", and the
                                    later variants are better termed "LotR-compatible" than "mature". (Actually
                                    some late ideas are not even LotR-compatible; nor are the late variants
                                    always compatible with one another, even if they are LotR-compatible.)

                                    As for _toron_ vs. _hαno, hanno_, I regard them simply as synonym words for
                                    "brother", but other things being equal, I would normally go for the latter
                                    (and later) forms.

                                    My suggestion would be _Hαnor/hannor tennoio_ in Quenya, with _Torni
                                    tennoio_ as an alternative if you are really fond of alliteration. In
                                    Sindarin, _Henair uirib_ could express "eternal brothers".

                                    - HKF
                                  • laurifindil
                                    ... wrote: ... No, no. Not in Sindarin... In Helgian Mish-Mash Neo-Sindarin please. ejk
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jul 5, 2005
                                    View Source
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                                      <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:

                                      <snip>

                                      > In
                                      > Sindarin, _Henair uirib_ could express "eternal brothers".
                                      >

                                      No, no.
                                      Not in Sindarin...
                                      In Helgian Mish-Mash Neo-Sindarin please.

                                      ejk
                                    • Helge K. Fauskanger
                                      ... I wonder why I even bother to reply, and I ve been in no haste to do so, but here goes: Ed, if you have any good reason to assume that the plural forms of
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jul 11, 2005
                                      View Source
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        I wrote:
                                        > In Sindarin, _Henair uirib_ could express "eternal brothers".

                                        "Laurifindil" (hello, Ed!) predictably responded:

                                        > No, no. Not in Sindarin... In Helgian Mish-Mash Neo-Sindarin please.

                                        I wonder why I even bother to reply, and I've been in no haste to do so,
                                        but here goes:

                                        Ed, if you have any good reason to assume that the plural forms of _hanar_
                                        "brother" (VT47:14) and _uireb_ "eternal" are NOT formed according to the
                                        normal patterns, we are all listening. If you will argue that the pl. of
                                        _hanar_ is not *_henair_ (cf. for instance _aran_ "king", pl. _erain_), I
                                        think the burden of evidence rests on you. You would have to presuppose
                                        some irregular form, which must be far more speculative than simply
                                        applying the rule derived from seemingly analogous examples.

                                        As for syntax, the "noun + adjective" pattern is so well attested that
                                        it's almost embarrassing to even cite an example, but consider for instance
                                        _i mbair annui_ "the lands western" in the King's Letter. If you want to
                                        make a big issue of the fact that the adjective _uireb_ (pl. *_uirib_)
                                        "eternal" is strictly speaking only attested in Noldorin as opposed to
                                        Sindarin proper, be my guest. But since the elements involved (derivatives
                                        of the root OY and the adjectival ending -eb) do appear in Sindarin proper
                                        as well, I think many observers would feel that this is a flimsy pretext
                                        for dismissing what I wrote as "Helgian Mish-Mash".

                                        I must say, Ed, that sometimes it would serve your general credibility
                                        better if you took the time to actually explain what you think is wrong (or
                                        at least overly speculative) about the translations offered. If you feel
                                        that direct Tolkienian authorship is the sole factor that can ever save any
                                        combination of Eldarin words from the status of "mish-mash", you are of
                                        course entitled to your opinion. But then we can never write out even the
                                        simplest phrase (of which _Henair uirib_ would be an example) if we thereby
                                        dare to imply that the result is, indeed, acceptable Eldarin. I do find it
                                        reasonable to assume that when a certain pattern of syntax is repeatedly
                                        observed in our material, it will actually work with other vocabulary items
                                        as well. This principle is after all the very foundation of any form of
                                        language properly so called, natural or invented.

                                        I strongly suspect that if I were to suggest that "the hill" translates
                                        into Sindarin as _i amon_, you would immediately dismiss this as
                                        "mish-mash" as well. For after all, the article followed by this exact noun
                                        is not directly attested in any published Tolkien manuscript...

                                        Do feel free to surprise me with a well-argued, non-aggressive reply, Ed.

                                        On the constructive and on-topic side: the guy who asked the original
                                        question may want to know that the following code will form the words
                                        _Henair uirib_ in any of the standard Tengwar fonts. This is written in the
                                        mode of Beleriand:

                                        9l6]Õ7 .Õ7`w

                                        - Helge Fauskanger
                                      • Gildor Inglorion
                                        ... I think Ed s position is more abstract, without having always some particular counter-reason to object. According to this, anything not attested is bound
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jul 11, 2005
                                        View Source
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          > offered. If you feel
                                          > that direct Tolkienian authorship is the sole factor
                                          > that can ever save any
                                          > combination of Eldarin words from the status of
                                          > "mish-mash", you are of
                                          > course entitled to your opinion. But then we can

                                          I think Ed's position is more abstract, without having
                                          always some particular counter-reason to object.
                                          According to this, anything not attested is bound to
                                          be neo-Sindarin mish-mash without having an
                                          alternative for everything

                                          Think about this: some years ago, we had the
                                          neo-Sindarin word for name 'ess', based on Q esse. I
                                          don't remember Ed writing anything in particular
                                          against it, but he could, even without knowing the
                                          word eneth yet. What then? we could ask him if he has
                                          any alternatives, of course he wouldn't have, and we
                                          could remind to him how many S words are like their Q
                                          counterparts lacking the final vowel (of course,
                                          provided that the rest of phonology fits), the word
                                          'estathar' that points to a root ES (and not, say,
                                          **GES, causing it to be **gess), present cases where
                                          'ss' has been retained in both languages and hasn't
                                          been simplified in S as one 's'. Everything pointed to
                                          'ess', and Ed could not argue against it, apart from
                                          reminding that this is neo-Sindarin, but guess what,
                                          this failed.

                                          I can also remember the rule to which we hold since
                                          years, that adjectives are lenited, but Thornsten had
                                          just to simply point out all the attested cases, and
                                          they weren't more than the exceptions (eg. Ered
                                          Mithrin), posing then the question how could we
                                          establish such a rule.







                                          ___________________________________________________________
                                          Χρησιμοποιείτε Yahoo!;
                                          Βαρεθήκατε τα ενοχλητικά μηνύματα (spam); Το Yahoo! Mail
                                          διαθέτει την καλύτερη δυνατή προστασία κατά των ενοχλητικών
                                          μηνυμάτων http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr
                                        • laurifindil
                                          ... please. ... do so, ... I know why... but I won t tell. It is not very proper. *LOL* Poor Helge... ejk
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jul 12, 2005
                                          View Source
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                                            <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
                                            > I wrote:
                                            > > In Sindarin, _Henair uirib_ could express "eternal brothers".
                                            >
                                            > "Laurifindil" (hello, Ed!) predictably responded:
                                            >
                                            > > No, no. Not in Sindarin... In Helgian Mish-Mash Neo-Sindarin
                                            please.
                                            >
                                            > I wonder why I even bother to reply, and I've been in no haste to
                                            do so,
                                            > but here goes:

                                            <snip stuff>

                                            I know why... but I won't tell. It is not very proper.
                                            *LOL*

                                            Poor Helge...

                                            ejk
                                          • laurifindil
                                            ... You can think , that is news to me. Really ? :) Mister Gildor when you think , you think _wrong_! All of yours is just a patheic game . Who cares? I
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jul 12, 2005
                                            View Source
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...>
                                              wrote:
                                              > > offered. If you feel
                                              > > that direct Tolkienian authorship is the sole factor
                                              > > that can ever save any
                                              > > combination of Eldarin words from the status of
                                              > > "mish-mash", you are of
                                              > > course entitled to your opinion. But then we can
                                              >
                                              > I think Ed's position is more abstract


                                              You can "think", that is news to me. Really ? :)

                                              Mister Gildor when you "think", you think _wrong_!

                                              All of yours is just a "patheic game".

                                              Who cares? I don't.

                                              LOL

                                              ejk
                                            • Gildor Inglorion
                                              ... I also think that you didn t read my post. ___________________________________________________________ Χρησιμοποιείτε Yahoo!;
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jul 12, 2005
                                              View Source
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                > You can "think", that is news to me. Really ? :)
                                                >
                                                > Mister Gildor when you "think", you think _wrong_!

                                                I also think that you didn't read my post.






                                                ___________________________________________________________
                                                Χρησιμοποιείτε Yahoo!;
                                                Βαρεθήκατε τα ενοχλητικά μηνύματα (spam); Το Yahoo! Mail
                                                διαθέτει την καλύτερη δυνατή προστασία κατά των ενοχλητικών
                                                μηνυμάτων http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr
                                              • Carl F. Hostetter
                                                Gildor is right, Edouard. If you read what he actually wrote, you will see that he was defending your position against Helge s simplistic dismissal of it.
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Jul 12, 2005
                                                View Source
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  "Gildor" is right, Edouard. If you read what he actually wrote, you
                                                  will see that he was defending your position against Helge's
                                                  simplistic dismissal of it.

                                                  (What IS it about the Internet that makes people fire off a reply
                                                  before they've even understood what they are replying to?)


                                                  On Jul 12, 2005, at 3:17 PM, Gildor Inglorion wrote:

                                                  >> You can "think", that is news to me. Really ? :)
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Mister Gildor when you "think", you think _wrong_!
                                                  >>
                                                  >
                                                  > I also think that you didn't read my post.
                                                • Helge K. Fauskanger
                                                  ... Of course, there were no surprises whatsoever in Ed s actual reply...better kill off this thread before people get bored. I already am. - HKF
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Jul 13, 2005
                                                  View Source
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    I wrote:

                                                    > Do feel free to surprise me with a well-argued, non-aggressive reply, Ed.

                                                    Of course, there were no surprises whatsoever in Ed's actual reply...better
                                                    kill off this thread before people get bored. I already am.

                                                    - HKF
                                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.