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Re: just a small request

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  • j_mach_wust
    ... The words _emerged_ and _seared_ are tricky: I think we can t tell from the few attested samples whether the _e_ in the ending _-ed_ should be written with
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 7, 2005
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      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "calwen76" <calwen.rudh@s...> wrote:
      >
      > Ling wrote:
      ...
      > > 'Out of suffering have emerged the strongest sould, the most
      > > vibrant spirits are seared with scars.'
      ...
      >
      > I suppose that the _sould_ [sic] is in fact _souls_. I have uploaded
      > a file with the transcription in a 'Common mode', orthographic
      > style. I'd like to ask you, dear elflingers, to double check it.
      >
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/calwen76/ling.gif

      The words _emerged_ and _seared_ are tricky: I think we can't tell
      from the few attested samples whether the _e_ in the ending _-ed_
      should be written with the normal e-tehta or with the dot below. In
      DTS 10, there's an instance (of _complicated_) with a dot below, but
      in DTS 13, there are two instances (of _rescued_ and of _barred_) with
      a normal e-sign. The spelling of DTS 13, however, is less reliable,
      since that text is a typical example that dwarves are not very fond of
      orthography as Tolkien pointed out in the essay _Of Dwarves and Men_
      (published in _The Peoples of Middle-earth_).

      I would go for a dot below in _emerged_ because this is based on the
      word _emerge_ which is written with dot below. I'm not so sure in the
      case of _seared_. The _e_ is silent, so a dot below would be okay, I
      guess.

      In _spirits_, a rómen would be more appropiate, since a vowel is
      following, whereas it's the other way round in the two words _are
      seared_ (the silent _e_ doesn't count).

      _Strongest_ might perhaps be written with ungwe + bar above instead of
      nwalme... but nwalme is perhaps better, since _strong_ is written with
      nwalme.


      > And, I'd like to note that I had problems with putting the underdot
      > for a silent E under the tengwa rómen (the underwave shows in its
      > stead), and with putting the underbar for doubling the formen tengwa
      > (in _suffering_) - I had to put the underwave (the under U-tehta
      > shows in its stead). I don't know whether it's a problem of my
      > computer only or the .pdf keyboard guide within the Tengwar Annatar
      > font package includes some slight mistakes - could anyone re-check
      > it, please? Thanks a lot!

      Tengwar Annatar works fine for me. Could it be that the program you
      were using was correcting you? Some programs do that (Microsoft Word
      for instance -- it's always the first thing I switch off).

      ---------------------------
      j. 'mach' wust
      http://machhezan.tripod.com
      ---------------------------
    • Ling Flygirl
      Thanks so much for all your help, you guys are great, and what I had on my own computer is almost identical, it is good to know that I am on the right track!
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 7, 2005
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        Thanks so much for all your help, you guys are great, and what I had on my
        own computer is almost identical, it is good to know that I am on the right
        track! I'm going to take some things over to my tattoo artist in a few days
        and I promise to share a picture of the finished piece!

        Ling


        >Message: 2
        > Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 15:51:11 -0000
        > From: "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@...>
        >Subject: Re: just a small request
        >
        >

        <SNIP>
      • calwen76
        ... In DTS 10, there are two styles of Elvish script as Tolkien himself wrote: a tehta mode and a full mode. In the tehta mode, the silent E in _complicated_
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 13, 2005
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          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@y...>
          wrote:
          > The words _emerged_ and _seared_ are tricky: I think we can't tell
          > from the few attested samples whether the _e_ in the ending _-ed_
          > should be written with the normal e-tehta or with the dot below. In
          > DTS 10, there's an instance (of _complicated_) with a dot below, but
          > in DTS 13, there are two instances (of _rescued_ and of _barred_)
          > with a normal e-sign. The spelling of DTS 13, however, is less
          > reliable, since that text is a typical example that dwarves are not
          > very fond of orthography as Tolkien pointed out in the essay _Of
          > Dwarves and Men_ (published in _The Peoples of Middle-earth_).

          In DTS 10, there are 'two styles of Elvish script' as Tolkien himself
          wrote: a tehta mode and a full mode. In the tehta mode, the silent E
          in _complicated_ is written as a dot above (in this specimen, Is are
          written with an accute accent, Es are written with a dot), i.e. it is
          written as a normal e-sign, in the full mode it is however written as
          a dot below, i.e. not as a 'regular' e-sign in a full mode (which
          would be yanta). And yet, in other full mode examples (DTS 18
          _lived_, DTS 20 _stayed_ and _purchased_, DTS 24 _deceived_ etc.) the
          silent E is not expressed at all. It is my impression then that
          Tolkien was maybe influenced by the pronunciation - while the silent
          E in _complicated_ is actually not silent since we need to pronounce
          T and D one after another and thus we say [komplikeitid], all other
          examples found include the 'real' silent E that is not in fact
          pronounced.

          And, here is the summary of silent Es in Tom Bombadil's Inscription
          (DTS 17, 18) and DTS 16:
          DTS 16
          gilded - short carrier with a dot (i.e. a normal I-sing in this mode)
          perfumed - no sign
          called - no sign

          DTS 17/18:
          nodded - short carrier with a dot
          lived - no sign
          dangled - dot in lambe
          noted - short carrier with a dot
          draggled - dot in lambe
          trapped - no sign

          I think a line could be seen here, what do you think?

          Lucy
        • j_mach_wust
          ... Thanks for pointing that out! I had overlooked it. ... DTS 16, 17, 18, 23 (not 20 as you ve mistakenly written) and 24 are another issue since they
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 13, 2005
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            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "calwen76" <calwen.rudh@s...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@y...>
            > wrote:
            > > The words _emerged_ and _seared_ are tricky: I think we can't tell
            > > from the few attested samples whether the _e_ in the ending _-ed_
            > > should be written with the normal e-tehta or with the dot below.
            > > In DTS 10, there's an instance (of _complicated_) with a dot
            > > below, but in DTS 13, there are two instances (of _rescued_ and of
            > > _barred_) with a normal e-sign. The spelling of DTS 13, however,
            > > is less reliable, since that text is a typical example that
            > > dwarves are not very fond of orthography as Tolkien pointed out in
            > > the essay _Of Dwarves and Men_ (published in _The Peoples of
            > > Middle-earth_).
            >
            > In DTS 10, there are 'two styles of Elvish script' as Tolkien
            > himself wrote: a tehta mode and a full mode. In the tehta mode, the
            > silent E in _complicated_ is written as a dot above (in this
            > specimen, Is are written with an accute accent, Es are written with
            > a dot), i.e. it is written as a normal e-sign, in the full mode it
            > is however written as a dot below, i.e. not as a 'regular' e-sign in
            > a full mode (which would be yanta).

            Thanks for pointing that out! I had overlooked it.


            > And yet, in other full mode
            > examples (DTS 18 _lived_, DTS 20 _stayed_ and _purchased_, DTS 24
            > _deceived_ etc.) the silent E is not expressed at all. It is my
            > impression then that Tolkien was maybe influenced by the
            > pronunciation - while the silent E in _complicated_ is actually not
            > silent since we need to pronounce T and D one after another and thus
            > we say [komplikeitid], all other examples found include the 'real'
            > silent E that is not in fact pronounced.

            DTS 16, 17, 18, 23 (not 20 as you've mistakenly written) and 24 are
            another issue since they represent phonemic modes, and not
            orthographic modes. As far as I know, the only orthographic mode
            samples are the ones of DTS 10 and 13.

            I think we don't have enouth samples to decide on this issue. Three
            samples show a normal e-letter, while one shows the dot below, but two
            of the three are in the orthographically defective specimen of DTS 13.

            I like your hypothesis.

            ---------------------------
            j. 'mach' wust
            http://machhezan.tripod.com
            ---------------------------
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