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just a small request

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  • Ling Flygirl
    Hey all, Longtime lurker here... I m about to have an english phrase tattoed on me in Tengwar... I ve spent an awful lot of time on it and finally after
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 4, 2005
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      Hey all,

      Longtime lurker here... I'm about to have an english phrase tattoed on me in
      Tengwar... I've spent an awful lot of time on it and finally after several
      failed attempts failed typing with the fonts I used one of the online
      transcribers and went back through it phonetically just to make sure it was
      what I wanted... I just want to know if anyone would be willing to double
      check it for me... I had originally wanted to translate the phrase into
      Quenya but due to the lack of vocabulary we know the words for and the
      somewhat repetitve nuances of the phrase I chose, I was unable to do so and
      settle on doing an emglish into Tengwar, so, in short, I just want it
      double-checked before it goes on me permanently.

      Thanks ever so much!

      Ling
    • calwen76
      ... on me in Tengwar... I ve spent an awful lot of time on it and finally after several failed attempts failed typing with the fonts I used one of the online
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 5, 2005
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        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Ling Flygirl" <theladyling@m...>
        wrote:
        > Hey all,
        > Longtime lurker here... I'm about to have an english phrase tattoed
        on me in Tengwar... I've spent an awful lot of time on it and finally
        after several failed attempts failed typing with the fonts I used one
        of the online transcribers and went back through it phonetically just
        to make sure it was what I wanted... I just want to know if anyone
        would be willing to double check it for me... I had originally wanted
        to translate the phrase into Quenya but due to the lack of vocabulary
        we know the words for and the somewhat repetitve nuances of the phrase
        I chose, I was unable to do so and settle on doing an emglish into
        Tengwar, so, in short, I just want it double-checked before it goes on
        me permanently.


        Good for you have chosen to have the English sentense... but where is
        it uploaded for the check? :)

        Lucy
      • calwen76
        ...or if you can t save the picture, let us know the English sentence you want to have in Tengwar. Lucy
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 6, 2005
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          ...or if you can't save the picture, let us know the English sentence
          you want to have in Tengwar.

          Lucy
        • calwen76
          ... have ... with ... I suppose that the _sould_ [sic] is in fact _souls_. I have uploaded a file with the transcription in a Common mode , orthographic
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 7, 2005
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            Ling wrote:
            >I don't have it uploaded, but the sentence is: 'Out of suffering
            have
            >emerged the strongest sould, the most vibrant spirits are seared
            with
            >scars.'
            >Thank you!

            I suppose that the _sould_ [sic] is in fact _souls_. I have uploaded
            a file with the transcription in a 'Common mode', orthographic style.
            I'd like to ask you, dear elflingers, to double check it.

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/calwen76/ling.gif

            And, I'd like to note that I had problems with putting the underdot
            for a silent E under the tengwa rómen (the underwave shows in its
            stead), and with putting the underbar for doubling the formen tengwa
            (in _suffering_) - I had to put the underwave (the under U-tehta
            shows in its stead). I don't know whether it's a problem of my
            computer only or the .pdf keyboard guide within the Tengwar Annatar
            font package includes some slight mistakes - could anyone re-check
            it, please? Thanks a lot!

            Lucy
          • j_mach_wust
            ... The words _emerged_ and _seared_ are tricky: I think we can t tell from the few attested samples whether the _e_ in the ending _-ed_ should be written with
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 7, 2005
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              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "calwen76" <calwen.rudh@s...> wrote:
              >
              > Ling wrote:
              ...
              > > 'Out of suffering have emerged the strongest sould, the most
              > > vibrant spirits are seared with scars.'
              ...
              >
              > I suppose that the _sould_ [sic] is in fact _souls_. I have uploaded
              > a file with the transcription in a 'Common mode', orthographic
              > style. I'd like to ask you, dear elflingers, to double check it.
              >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/calwen76/ling.gif

              The words _emerged_ and _seared_ are tricky: I think we can't tell
              from the few attested samples whether the _e_ in the ending _-ed_
              should be written with the normal e-tehta or with the dot below. In
              DTS 10, there's an instance (of _complicated_) with a dot below, but
              in DTS 13, there are two instances (of _rescued_ and of _barred_) with
              a normal e-sign. The spelling of DTS 13, however, is less reliable,
              since that text is a typical example that dwarves are not very fond of
              orthography as Tolkien pointed out in the essay _Of Dwarves and Men_
              (published in _The Peoples of Middle-earth_).

              I would go for a dot below in _emerged_ because this is based on the
              word _emerge_ which is written with dot below. I'm not so sure in the
              case of _seared_. The _e_ is silent, so a dot below would be okay, I
              guess.

              In _spirits_, a rómen would be more appropiate, since a vowel is
              following, whereas it's the other way round in the two words _are
              seared_ (the silent _e_ doesn't count).

              _Strongest_ might perhaps be written with ungwe + bar above instead of
              nwalme... but nwalme is perhaps better, since _strong_ is written with
              nwalme.


              > And, I'd like to note that I had problems with putting the underdot
              > for a silent E under the tengwa rómen (the underwave shows in its
              > stead), and with putting the underbar for doubling the formen tengwa
              > (in _suffering_) - I had to put the underwave (the under U-tehta
              > shows in its stead). I don't know whether it's a problem of my
              > computer only or the .pdf keyboard guide within the Tengwar Annatar
              > font package includes some slight mistakes - could anyone re-check
              > it, please? Thanks a lot!

              Tengwar Annatar works fine for me. Could it be that the program you
              were using was correcting you? Some programs do that (Microsoft Word
              for instance -- it's always the first thing I switch off).

              ---------------------------
              j. 'mach' wust
              http://machhezan.tripod.com
              ---------------------------
            • Ling Flygirl
              Thanks so much for all your help, you guys are great, and what I had on my own computer is almost identical, it is good to know that I am on the right track!
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 7, 2005
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                Thanks so much for all your help, you guys are great, and what I had on my
                own computer is almost identical, it is good to know that I am on the right
                track! I'm going to take some things over to my tattoo artist in a few days
                and I promise to share a picture of the finished piece!

                Ling


                >Message: 2
                > Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 15:51:11 -0000
                > From: "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@...>
                >Subject: Re: just a small request
                >
                >

                <SNIP>
              • calwen76
                ... In DTS 10, there are two styles of Elvish script as Tolkien himself wrote: a tehta mode and a full mode. In the tehta mode, the silent E in _complicated_
                Message 7 of 8 , Apr 13, 2005
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                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > The words _emerged_ and _seared_ are tricky: I think we can't tell
                  > from the few attested samples whether the _e_ in the ending _-ed_
                  > should be written with the normal e-tehta or with the dot below. In
                  > DTS 10, there's an instance (of _complicated_) with a dot below, but
                  > in DTS 13, there are two instances (of _rescued_ and of _barred_)
                  > with a normal e-sign. The spelling of DTS 13, however, is less
                  > reliable, since that text is a typical example that dwarves are not
                  > very fond of orthography as Tolkien pointed out in the essay _Of
                  > Dwarves and Men_ (published in _The Peoples of Middle-earth_).

                  In DTS 10, there are 'two styles of Elvish script' as Tolkien himself
                  wrote: a tehta mode and a full mode. In the tehta mode, the silent E
                  in _complicated_ is written as a dot above (in this specimen, Is are
                  written with an accute accent, Es are written with a dot), i.e. it is
                  written as a normal e-sign, in the full mode it is however written as
                  a dot below, i.e. not as a 'regular' e-sign in a full mode (which
                  would be yanta). And yet, in other full mode examples (DTS 18
                  _lived_, DTS 20 _stayed_ and _purchased_, DTS 24 _deceived_ etc.) the
                  silent E is not expressed at all. It is my impression then that
                  Tolkien was maybe influenced by the pronunciation - while the silent
                  E in _complicated_ is actually not silent since we need to pronounce
                  T and D one after another and thus we say [komplikeitid], all other
                  examples found include the 'real' silent E that is not in fact
                  pronounced.

                  And, here is the summary of silent Es in Tom Bombadil's Inscription
                  (DTS 17, 18) and DTS 16:
                  DTS 16
                  gilded - short carrier with a dot (i.e. a normal I-sing in this mode)
                  perfumed - no sign
                  called - no sign

                  DTS 17/18:
                  nodded - short carrier with a dot
                  lived - no sign
                  dangled - dot in lambe
                  noted - short carrier with a dot
                  draggled - dot in lambe
                  trapped - no sign

                  I think a line could be seen here, what do you think?

                  Lucy
                • j_mach_wust
                  ... Thanks for pointing that out! I had overlooked it. ... DTS 16, 17, 18, 23 (not 20 as you ve mistakenly written) and 24 are another issue since they
                  Message 8 of 8 , Apr 13, 2005
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                    --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "calwen76" <calwen.rudh@s...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@y...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > The words _emerged_ and _seared_ are tricky: I think we can't tell
                    > > from the few attested samples whether the _e_ in the ending _-ed_
                    > > should be written with the normal e-tehta or with the dot below.
                    > > In DTS 10, there's an instance (of _complicated_) with a dot
                    > > below, but in DTS 13, there are two instances (of _rescued_ and of
                    > > _barred_) with a normal e-sign. The spelling of DTS 13, however,
                    > > is less reliable, since that text is a typical example that
                    > > dwarves are not very fond of orthography as Tolkien pointed out in
                    > > the essay _Of Dwarves and Men_ (published in _The Peoples of
                    > > Middle-earth_).
                    >
                    > In DTS 10, there are 'two styles of Elvish script' as Tolkien
                    > himself wrote: a tehta mode and a full mode. In the tehta mode, the
                    > silent E in _complicated_ is written as a dot above (in this
                    > specimen, Is are written with an accute accent, Es are written with
                    > a dot), i.e. it is written as a normal e-sign, in the full mode it
                    > is however written as a dot below, i.e. not as a 'regular' e-sign in
                    > a full mode (which would be yanta).

                    Thanks for pointing that out! I had overlooked it.


                    > And yet, in other full mode
                    > examples (DTS 18 _lived_, DTS 20 _stayed_ and _purchased_, DTS 24
                    > _deceived_ etc.) the silent E is not expressed at all. It is my
                    > impression then that Tolkien was maybe influenced by the
                    > pronunciation - while the silent E in _complicated_ is actually not
                    > silent since we need to pronounce T and D one after another and thus
                    > we say [komplikeitid], all other examples found include the 'real'
                    > silent E that is not in fact pronounced.

                    DTS 16, 17, 18, 23 (not 20 as you've mistakenly written) and 24 are
                    another issue since they represent phonemic modes, and not
                    orthographic modes. As far as I know, the only orthographic mode
                    samples are the ones of DTS 10 and 13.

                    I think we don't have enouth samples to decide on this issue. Three
                    samples show a normal e-letter, while one shows the dot below, but two
                    of the three are in the orthographically defective specimen of DTS 13.

                    I like your hypothesis.

                    ---------------------------
                    j. 'mach' wust
                    http://machhezan.tripod.com
                    ---------------------------
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