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Re: R: [elfscript] On long vowels

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  • calwen76
    ... single tehtar ... preceding ... Both are attested and thus correct. The long carrier use is attested in DTS 19 (The Jacket Namárie) and DTS 20 (Namárie),
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 3, 2005
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      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Fradeve Virgilio" <fradeve11@v...>
      wrote:
      > My question is: is more correct write long vowels replacing a
      single tehtar
      > with double (and, in this case, writing the double tehtar on the
      preceding
      > tengwar) or write the long vowel on long base?
      > And: are attested both the systems?

      Both are attested and thus correct.

      The long carrier use is attested in DTS 19 (The Jacket Namárie) and
      DTS 20 (Namárie), the double tehtar in DTS 55 ("Galadriel's Lament"
      Fragment; Eorclanstanas).

      Lucy
    • Gildor Inglorion
      Imagine the tengwar as a flexible non-standard script for many languages, used in not few, but many places, in medieval europe (yes, i know M-e is not
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 3, 2005
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        Imagine the tengwar as a flexible non-standard script
        for many languages, used in not few, but many places,
        in medieval europe (yes, i know M-e is not medieval,
        but it's just an example).. quite chaotic

        so, in this context, there is no 'more correct' or
        less.. and one mode can have many variations in
        itself.... as we have seen, in Tolkien's tengwar
        texts, both are usable, and even can be combined

        we, of course, as modern people, try to be more
        standard... the most 'common' way in Tolkien's texts
        is to use the long carrier instead of double tehtar,
        and that's also in our tengwar texts

        also, Tolkien said that sometimes the dot is used for
        e, and the acute for i, but i don't think he even
        wrote texts in this 'alternative mode' (if he did,
        they must have been few), but his son did. All the fan
        tengwar texts i have seen, don't use this alternative
        mode, although according to Tolkien it wouldn't be wrong

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      • i_degilbor
        ... There is at least one example of Tolkien using the dot for e and the acute accent for i : the tehta mode version of the Brogan tengwa greeting (DTS 10).
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 4, 2005
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          Teithant Gildor Inglorion:
          > also, Tolkien said that sometimes the dot is used for
          > e, and the acute for i, but i don't think he even
          > wrote texts in this 'alternative mode'

          There is at least one example of Tolkien using the dot for 'e' and
          the acute accent for 'i': the tehta mode version of the Brogan
          tengwa greeting (DTS 10).

          Cuio mae, Danny.
        • hisilome
          ... An example where Tolkien (J.R.R., not Christopher) did represent e with the dot and i with the acute would be the Brogan Tengwar Greetings (the first
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 4, 2005
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            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...>
            wrote:

            > also, Tolkien said that sometimes the dot is used for
            > e, and the acute for i, but i don't think he even
            > wrote texts in this 'alternative mode' (if he did,
            > they must have been few), but his son did. All the fan
            > tengwar texts i have seen, don't use this alternative
            > mode, although according to Tolkien it wouldn't be wrong
            >

            An example where Tolkien (J.R.R., not Christopher) did represent "e"
            with the dot and "i" with the acute would be the Brogan Tengwar
            Greetings (the first of the two tengwar texts, which is written in an
            orthographic tehtar mode).

            Hísilómë
          • Fradeve Virgilio
            Aiya, first of all, thanks to Hísilómë, Gildor Inglorion, Calwen 76 and Danny. So, this unexpected clarification will permit me to terminate my work. I will
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 8, 2005
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              Aiya,

              first of all, thanks to Hísilómë, Gildor Inglorion, Calwen 76 and Danny.
              So, this unexpected clarification will permit me to terminate my work.
              I will use probably the “long carrier mode”, given that the “double tehta
              mode” had a complication:
              the vowel _a_ can’t be doubled on a tengwa (or on a carrier), since it’s
              composed by 3 dots.
              I think that the long carrier mode will be more clear and directly
              understandable and I want to unify
              the method I’ll use: probably writing all the long vowels but _a_ with
              double tehtar and only the _a_ with a long carrier could appear
              contradictory.
              So, long life to the “long carrier mode”! ;)

              Regards

              Fradeve V



              _____

              Da: hisilome [mailto:david.vdpeet@...]
              Inviato: sabato 5 febbraio 2005 3.33
              A: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
              Oggetto: Re: R: [elfscript] On long vowels


              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...>
              wrote:

              > also, Tolkien said that sometimes the dot is used for
              > e, and the acute for i, but i don't think he even
              > wrote texts in this 'alternative mode' (if he did,
              > they must have been few), but his son did. All the fan
              > tengwar texts i have seen, don't use this alternative
              > mode, although according to Tolkien it wouldn't be wrong
              >

              An example where Tolkien (J.R.R., not Christopher) did represent "e"
              with the dot and "i" with the acute would be the Brogan Tengwar
              Greetings (the first of the two tengwar texts, which is written in an
              orthographic tehtar mode).

              Hísilómë






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            • j_mach_wust
              ... wrote: ... ... This is attested in DTS 55. Even the i-tehta is doubled, even though app. E mentions only the doubling of the curls and the acute. Anyway,
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 8, 2005
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                --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Fradeve Virgilio" <fradeve11@v...>
                wrote:
                ...
                > the method I'll use: probably writing all the long vowels but _a_
                > with double tehtar and only the _a_ with a long carrier could appear
                > contradictory.
                ...

                This is attested in DTS 55. Even the i-tehta is doubled, even though
                app. E mentions only the doubling of the curls and the acute.

                Anyway, that specimen is not written very consistently: The a-tehta is
                sometimes written and sometimes not, and the sign for following y is
                sometimes written with two dots above (three times) and sometimes with
                three dots above (two times).

                ---------------------------
                j. 'mach' wust
                http://machhezan.tripod.com
                ---------------------------
              • Fradeve Virgilio
                Lot of thanks for clarification: now I’m writing ALL long vowels on long carriers. I think it should be the most clear in direct method. Regards Fradeve V
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 14, 2005
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                  Lot of thanks for clarification: now I’m writing ALL long vowels on long
                  carriers.
                  I think it should be the most clear in direct method.

                  Regards

                  Fradeve V

                  _____

                  Da: j_mach_wust [mailto:j_mach_wust@...]
                  Inviato: mercoledì 9 febbraio 2005 1.29
                  A: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
                  Oggetto: [elfscript] Re: On long vowels (and remark on DTS 55)


                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Fradeve Virgilio" <fradeve11@v...>
                  wrote:
                  ...
                  > the method I'll use: probably writing all the long vowels but _a_
                  > with double tehtar and only the _a_ with a long carrier could appear
                  > contradictory.
                  ...

                  This is attested in DTS 55. Even the i-tehta is doubled, even though
                  app. E mentions only the doubling of the curls and the acute.

                  Anyway, that specimen is not written very consistently: The a-tehta is
                  sometimes written and sometimes not, and the sign for following y is
                  sometimes written with two dots above (three times) and sometimes with
                  three dots above (two times).

                  ---------------------------
                  j. 'mach' wust
                  http://machhezan.tripod.com
                  ---------------------------






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