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motto translation

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  • dark_goddess1054
    I am horrifyingly confused trying to translate a coat of arms motto into both Quenya and Sindarin and was wondering if someone might help me out? The star of
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 26, 2005
      I am horrifyingly confused trying to translate a coat of arms motto
      into both Quenya and Sindarin and was wondering if someone might
      help me out?

      "The star of the sea."

      I have the fonts on my computer so I just need the words in order to
      create an image.

      Begging is *not* a problem at this point :{

      dark_goddess
    • Gildor Inglorion
      ... Quenya: earel, earelen, elen eareno Sindarin: aergil, gil aear ... fonts are not enough.. do you know also how to use them? of course not by typing e, a,
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 26, 2005
        > "The star of the sea."

        Quenya: earel, earelen, elen eareno
        Sindarin: aergil, gil aear

        > I have the fonts on my computer so I just need the
        > words in order to
        > create an image.

        fonts are not enough.. do you know also how to use
        them? of course not by typing e, a, r, e, l on your
        keyboard... or else we wouldn't ever need to learn how
        to spell tengwar... if you don't know how, then use a
        transcriber like tengscribe or
        http://www.tengwar.art.pl/ott/english.php which is
        online and you don't need to download

        also, pay attention to the mode: if you are to infput
        a Quenya word, choose Quenya mode... if a Sinadrin
        word, then Sindarin mode


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      • Dave
        Hm. Why render the genitive as eareno ? I know the Etymologies (p.349) give a form _earen_ (without further explanations), which at that conceptual stage was
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 27, 2005
          Hm. Why render the genitive as
          "eareno"?

          I know the Etymologies (p.349) give a
          form _earen_ (without further
          explanations), which at that
          conceptual stage was probably genitive
          (cf. "ailin [g.sg. ailinen]" just
          above on the same page) though
          according to later revisions might be
          considered dative. However that may
          be, I don't see any rationale for the
          form *_eareno_ as genitive (this would
          either be mixing an earlier with a
          later gen form, or adding a gen to a
          dat form): I would say either _earen_
          ("older" form) or _earo_.

          Accordingly, "elen earo".

          I'm just checking if I got my grammar
          right here, from a "euphonic" point of
          view, I'd actually prefer "eAreno" to
          "Earo" (capital letters marking
          stress)... :)

          Hisilome


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Gildor Inglorion"
          <elfiness@...>
          To: <elfscript@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 3:43
          PM
          Subject: Re: [elfscript] motto
          translation


          >
          > > "The star of the sea."
          >
          > Quenya: earel, earelen, elen eareno
        • Gildor Inglorion
          Earen AFAIK is not an old form, but an alternative form as well, considered extended ... take for example Earendil (earen+ndil) instead of Earnil (which is
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 28, 2005
            Earen AFAIK is not an old form, but an alternative
            form as well, considered 'extended'... take for
            example Earendil (earen+ndil) instead of Earnil (which
            is also attested, but beased on the shortened
            alternative form)

            also cf. aear and aearon in Sindarin which i think
            don'thave the same 'function', but shows that
            alternative forms can exist

            > Hm. Why render the genitive as
            > "eareno"?
            >
            > I know the Etymologies (p.349) give a
            > form _earen_ (without further
            > explanations), which at that
            > conceptual stage was probably genitive
            > (cf. "ailin [g.sg. ailinen]" just
            > above on the same page) though
            > according to later revisions might be
            > considered dative. However that may
            > be, I don't see any rationale for the
            > form *_eareno_ as genitive (this would
            > either be mixing an earlier with a
            > later gen form, or adding a gen to a
            > dat form): I would say either _earen_
            > ("older" form) or _earo_.
            >
            > Accordingly, "elen earo".
            >
            > I'm just checking if I got my grammar
            > right here, from a "euphonic" point of
            > view, I'd actually prefer "eAreno" to
            > "Earo" (capital letters marking
            > stress)... :)
            >
            > Hisilome
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Gildor Inglorion"
            > <elfiness@...>
            > To: <elfscript@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 3:43
            > PM
            > Subject: Re: [elfscript] motto
            > translation
            >
            >
            > >
            > > > "The star of the sea."
            > >
            > > Quenya: earel, earelen, elen eareno
            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • Dave
            Certainly, in names this phenomenon does occur quite frequently, and I would suspect largely also for euphonic reasons :). I also agree that _earen_ could be
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 28, 2005
              Certainly, in names this phenomenon
              does occur quite frequently, and I
              would suspect largely also for
              "euphonic" reasons :).

              I also agree that _earen_ could be
              meant as an alternative (nominative)
              form, since Tolkien did not indicate
              any specific (other) case in Etym.
              That would leave us with two possible
              genitive forms, _earo_ and _eareno_
              (and two possible dative forms as
              well, _earen_ and _earenen_); two
              paradigms for all cases in fact.

              Hisilome


              >
              > Earen AFAIK is not an old form, but
              an alternative
              > form as well, considered
              'extended'... take for
              > example Earendil (earen+ndil)
              instead of Earnil (which
              > is also attested, but beased on the
              shortened
              > alternative form)
              >
              > also cf. aear and aearon in Sindarin
              which i think
              > don'thave the same 'function', but
              shows that
              > alternative forms can exist
              >
              > > Hm. Why render the genitive as
              > > "eareno"?
              > >
              > > I know the Etymologies (p.349)
              give a
              > > form _earen_ (without further
              > > explanations), which at that
              > > conceptual stage was probably
              genitive
              > > (cf. "ailin [g.sg. ailinen]" just
              > > above on the same page) though
              > > according to later revisions might
              be
              > > considered dative. However that
              may
              > > be, I don't see any rationale for
              the
              > > form *_eareno_ as genitive (this
              would
              > > either be mixing an earlier with a
              > > later gen form, or adding a gen to
              a
              > > dat form): I would say either
              _earen_
              > > ("older" form) or _earo_.
              > >
              > > Accordingly, "elen earo".
              > >
              > > I'm just checking if I got my
              grammar
              > > right here, from a "euphonic"
              point of
              > > view, I'd actually prefer "eAreno"
              to
              > > "Earo" (capital letters marking
              > > stress)... :)
              > >
              > > Hisilome
            • Gildor Inglorion
              Another example is el, elen.. also the case of ken, genitive kemen, which became fossilised in the name Kementari, and because T didn t like Kemtari, he
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 28, 2005
                Another example is el, elen.. also the case of ken,
                genitive kemen, which became fossilised in the name
                Kementari, and because T didn't like Kemtari, he
                altered kemen as nominative form

                > Certainly, in names this phenomenon
                > does occur quite frequently, and I
                > would suspect largely also for
                > "euphonic" reasons :).
                >
                > I also agree that _earen_ could be
                > meant as an alternative (nominative)
                > form, since Tolkien did not indicate
                > any specific (other) case in Etym.
                > That would leave us with two possible
                > genitive forms, _earo_ and _eareno_
                > (and two possible dative forms as
                > well, _earen_ and _earenen_); two
                > paradigms for all cases in fact.
                >
                > Hisilome
                >
                >
                > >
                > > Earen AFAIK is not an old form, but
                > an alternative
                > > form as well, considered
                > 'extended'... take for
                > > example Earendil (earen+ndil)
                > instead of Earnil (which
                > > is also attested, but beased on the
                > shortened
                > > alternative form)
                > >
                > > also cf. aear and aearon in Sindarin
                > which i think
                > > don'thave the same 'function', but
                > shows that
                > > alternative forms can exist
                > >
                > > > Hm. Why render the genitive as
                > > > "eareno"?
                > > >
                > > > I know the Etymologies (p.349)
                > give a
                > > > form _earen_ (without further
                > > > explanations), which at that
                > > > conceptual stage was probably
                > genitive
                > > > (cf. "ailin [g.sg. ailinen]" just
                > > > above on the same page) though
                > > > according to later revisions might
                > be
                > > > considered dative. However that
                > may
                > > > be, I don't see any rationale for
                > the
                > > > form *_eareno_ as genitive (this
                > would
                > > > either be mixing an earlier with a
                > > > later gen form, or adding a gen to
                > a
                > > > dat form): I would say either
                > _earen_
                > > > ("older" form) or _earo_.
                > > >
                > > > Accordingly, "elen earo".
                > > >
                > > > I'm just checking if I got my
                > grammar
                > > > right here, from a "euphonic"
                > point of
                > > > view, I'd actually prefer "eAreno"
                > to
                > > > "Earo" (capital letters marking
                > > > stress)... :)
                > > >
                > > > Hisilome
                >
                >
                >
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              • Fradeve Virgilio
                Aiya! During the transcription of a Quenya passage in tengwar, I ve found an -normally- interesting case: a long vowel. So, can be too simply -writing with
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 2, 2005
                  Aiya!

                  During the transcription of a Quenya passage in tengwar,
                  I've found an -normally- interesting case: a long vowel.
                  So, can be too simply -writing with tengwar- if I find a long vowel, write
                  the tehtar above a long base.
                  But, I've studied tengwar scripts by Amanie Tenceli, and in the Classical
                  Quenya Mode, it's reported that long vowel could be expressed also writing a
                  double tehtar on the correspondent tengwar (in the CQM, it should be the
                  preceding...).
                  My question is: is more correct write long vowels replacing a single tehtar
                  with double (and, in this case, writing the double tehtar on the preceding
                  tengwar) or write the long vowel on long base?
                  And: are attested both the systems?

                  Regards,

                  Fradeve
                • calwen76
                  ... single tehtar ... preceding ... Both are attested and thus correct. The long carrier use is attested in DTS 19 (The Jacket Namárie) and DTS 20 (Namárie),
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 3, 2005
                    --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Fradeve Virgilio" <fradeve11@v...>
                    wrote:
                    > My question is: is more correct write long vowels replacing a
                    single tehtar
                    > with double (and, in this case, writing the double tehtar on the
                    preceding
                    > tengwar) or write the long vowel on long base?
                    > And: are attested both the systems?

                    Both are attested and thus correct.

                    The long carrier use is attested in DTS 19 (The Jacket Namárie) and
                    DTS 20 (Namárie), the double tehtar in DTS 55 ("Galadriel's Lament"
                    Fragment; Eorclanstanas).

                    Lucy
                  • Gildor Inglorion
                    Imagine the tengwar as a flexible non-standard script for many languages, used in not few, but many places, in medieval europe (yes, i know M-e is not
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 3, 2005
                      Imagine the tengwar as a flexible non-standard script
                      for many languages, used in not few, but many places,
                      in medieval europe (yes, i know M-e is not medieval,
                      but it's just an example).. quite chaotic

                      so, in this context, there is no 'more correct' or
                      less.. and one mode can have many variations in
                      itself.... as we have seen, in Tolkien's tengwar
                      texts, both are usable, and even can be combined

                      we, of course, as modern people, try to be more
                      standard... the most 'common' way in Tolkien's texts
                      is to use the long carrier instead of double tehtar,
                      and that's also in our tengwar texts

                      also, Tolkien said that sometimes the dot is used for
                      e, and the acute for i, but i don't think he even
                      wrote texts in this 'alternative mode' (if he did,
                      they must have been few), but his son did. All the fan
                      tengwar texts i have seen, don't use this alternative
                      mode, although according to Tolkien it wouldn't be wrong

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                    • i_degilbor
                      ... There is at least one example of Tolkien using the dot for e and the acute accent for i : the tehta mode version of the Brogan tengwa greeting (DTS 10).
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 4, 2005
                        Teithant Gildor Inglorion:
                        > also, Tolkien said that sometimes the dot is used for
                        > e, and the acute for i, but i don't think he even
                        > wrote texts in this 'alternative mode'

                        There is at least one example of Tolkien using the dot for 'e' and
                        the acute accent for 'i': the tehta mode version of the Brogan
                        tengwa greeting (DTS 10).

                        Cuio mae, Danny.
                      • hisilome
                        ... An example where Tolkien (J.R.R., not Christopher) did represent e with the dot and i with the acute would be the Brogan Tengwar Greetings (the first
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 4, 2005
                          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...>
                          wrote:

                          > also, Tolkien said that sometimes the dot is used for
                          > e, and the acute for i, but i don't think he even
                          > wrote texts in this 'alternative mode' (if he did,
                          > they must have been few), but his son did. All the fan
                          > tengwar texts i have seen, don't use this alternative
                          > mode, although according to Tolkien it wouldn't be wrong
                          >

                          An example where Tolkien (J.R.R., not Christopher) did represent "e"
                          with the dot and "i" with the acute would be the Brogan Tengwar
                          Greetings (the first of the two tengwar texts, which is written in an
                          orthographic tehtar mode).

                          Hísilómë
                        • Fradeve Virgilio
                          Aiya, first of all, thanks to Hísilómë, Gildor Inglorion, Calwen 76 and Danny. So, this unexpected clarification will permit me to terminate my work. I will
                          Message 12 of 14 , Feb 8, 2005
                            Aiya,

                            first of all, thanks to Hísilómë, Gildor Inglorion, Calwen 76 and Danny.
                            So, this unexpected clarification will permit me to terminate my work.
                            I will use probably the “long carrier mode”, given that the “double tehta
                            mode” had a complication:
                            the vowel _a_ can’t be doubled on a tengwa (or on a carrier), since it’s
                            composed by 3 dots.
                            I think that the long carrier mode will be more clear and directly
                            understandable and I want to unify
                            the method I’ll use: probably writing all the long vowels but _a_ with
                            double tehtar and only the _a_ with a long carrier could appear
                            contradictory.
                            So, long life to the “long carrier mode”! ;)

                            Regards

                            Fradeve V



                            _____

                            Da: hisilome [mailto:david.vdpeet@...]
                            Inviato: sabato 5 febbraio 2005 3.33
                            A: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
                            Oggetto: Re: R: [elfscript] On long vowels


                            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...>
                            wrote:

                            > also, Tolkien said that sometimes the dot is used for
                            > e, and the acute for i, but i don't think he even
                            > wrote texts in this 'alternative mode' (if he did,
                            > they must have been few), but his son did. All the fan
                            > tengwar texts i have seen, don't use this alternative
                            > mode, although according to Tolkien it wouldn't be wrong
                            >

                            An example where Tolkien (J.R.R., not Christopher) did represent "e"
                            with the dot and "i" with the acute would be the Brogan Tengwar
                            Greetings (the first of the two tengwar texts, which is written in an
                            orthographic tehtar mode).

                            Hísilómë






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                          • j_mach_wust
                            ... wrote: ... ... This is attested in DTS 55. Even the i-tehta is doubled, even though app. E mentions only the doubling of the curls and the acute. Anyway,
                            Message 13 of 14 , Feb 8, 2005
                              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Fradeve Virgilio" <fradeve11@v...>
                              wrote:
                              ...
                              > the method I'll use: probably writing all the long vowels but _a_
                              > with double tehtar and only the _a_ with a long carrier could appear
                              > contradictory.
                              ...

                              This is attested in DTS 55. Even the i-tehta is doubled, even though
                              app. E mentions only the doubling of the curls and the acute.

                              Anyway, that specimen is not written very consistently: The a-tehta is
                              sometimes written and sometimes not, and the sign for following y is
                              sometimes written with two dots above (three times) and sometimes with
                              three dots above (two times).

                              ---------------------------
                              j. 'mach' wust
                              http://machhezan.tripod.com
                              ---------------------------
                            • Fradeve Virgilio
                              Lot of thanks for clarification: now I’m writing ALL long vowels on long carriers. I think it should be the most clear in direct method. Regards Fradeve V
                              Message 14 of 14 , Feb 14, 2005
                                Lot of thanks for clarification: now I’m writing ALL long vowels on long
                                carriers.
                                I think it should be the most clear in direct method.

                                Regards

                                Fradeve V

                                _____

                                Da: j_mach_wust [mailto:j_mach_wust@...]
                                Inviato: mercoledì 9 febbraio 2005 1.29
                                A: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
                                Oggetto: [elfscript] Re: On long vowels (and remark on DTS 55)


                                --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Fradeve Virgilio" <fradeve11@v...>
                                wrote:
                                ...
                                > the method I'll use: probably writing all the long vowels but _a_
                                > with double tehtar and only the _a_ with a long carrier could appear
                                > contradictory.
                                ...

                                This is attested in DTS 55. Even the i-tehta is doubled, even though
                                app. E mentions only the doubling of the curls and the acute.

                                Anyway, that specimen is not written very consistently: The a-tehta is
                                sometimes written and sometimes not, and the sign for following y is
                                sometimes written with two dots above (three times) and sometimes with
                                three dots above (two times).

                                ---------------------------
                                j. 'mach' wust
                                http://machhezan.tripod.com
                                ---------------------------






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