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Re: Spelling of "nd" and "ld"

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  • j_mach_wust
    ... That s my opinion, too. ... I second that: Two different spellings that depend on the language. Another sample is the general use representation of
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 6, 2005
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      Dave 'Hísilómë' wrote:
      > I guess it's safe to assume that the
      > over-bar is standard for
      > nasalizationin the "general use" mode.

      That's my opinion, too.


      > With "ld", there are two examples in
      > Quenya texts (Idril's Device and DTS
      > 38 [AI 182], RotK Jacket Draft), both
      > using alda, while in English texts I
      > found only "Ronald" in DTS 5 (LotR
      > title page inscription)--somehow alda
      > would look "strange" in a word-final
      > position (where in Quenya, of course,
      > it would never occur). I found no
      > evidence for "ld" in a medial position
      > in English, but maybe I've overlooked
      > something?
      >
      > "General use", I thus assume for the
      > time being, would spell alda for "ld"
      > in Quenya texts (identical with the
      > Classical mode) and "lambe plus ando"
      > in English texts, seeing two divergent
      > spellings for the same letter
      > combination.

      I second that: Two different spellings that depend on the language.
      Another sample is the general use representation of syllables that
      begin with _y_: anna in Quenya (DTS 46 - The Manney Inscription) and
      in English (DTS 10 - The Brogan Tengwa-greetings, DTS 39 - Doodled
      Headlines), in Sindarin, however, yanta (DTS 49 - King's Letter, Third
      Version). (Note that both the Sindarin and the English letter are also
      used for the second parts of diphthongs.)

      If we look at other modes where the ando-tyelle is used for voiced
      stops (and not for prenasalized voiced stops as in the classical
      Quenya use) and where the velar series is the quessetéma (and not the
      calmatéma as in the classical Quenya use), we see still more variation
      in the use of alda:

      In orthographic full writing modes of English, alda is often used for
      _ll_ (DTS 13 - Middle Page from the Book of Mazarbul, DTS 45, 48, 49,
      that is, all three King's Letters).

      In the Old English modes (DTS 50 - Edwin Lowdham's Manuscript, Text I,
      DTS 51 - Edwin Lowdham's Manuscript, Text II), it's used for _ld_,
      just as in Quenya.

      So there are four different options in the use of alda: Either for
      _lh_, for _ld_, for _ll_, or not used at all. It seems not to belong
      to the stable tengwar.

      ---------------------------
      j. 'mach' wust
      http://machhezan.tripod.com
      ---------------------------
    • Dave
      I m glad our opinions concur on the spelling of nasalization and ld in the general use mode ! Thanks for pointing out additional details on ld . As for
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 6, 2005
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        I'm glad our opinions concur on the spelling of nasalization and "ld" in the "general use mode"! Thanks for pointing out additional details on "ld".

        As for "stable" tengwar (if by this we mean "representing the same sound in _all_ 'Tolkien-attested' modes", incl. the Classical Quenya Mode, the Mode of Gondor ["Standard Sindarin"], the Full Mode of Gondor, the Mode of Beleriand, as well as the phonemic/phonetic and orthographic English modes [both oomatehtar and full modes]), there really aren't that many (according to this strict standard), except tinco, parma, formen, lambe, silme, hyarmen--or did I forget any/make a mistake?

        Hísilómë

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: j_mach_wust
        To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 7:24 PM
        Subject: [elfscript] Re: Spelling of "nd" and "ld"



        Dave 'Hísilómë' wrote:
        > I guess it's safe to assume that the
        > over-bar is standard for
        > nasalizationin the "general use" mode.

        That's my opinion, too.


        > With "ld", there are two examples in
        > Quenya texts (Idril's Device and DTS
        > 38 [AI 182], RotK Jacket Draft), both
        > using alda, while in English texts I
        > found only "Ronald" in DTS 5 (LotR
        > title page inscription)--somehow alda
        > would look "strange" in a word-final
        > position (where in Quenya, of course,
        > it would never occur). I found no
        > evidence for "ld" in a medial position
        > in English, but maybe I've overlooked
        > something?
        >
        > "General use", I thus assume for the
        > time being, would spell alda for "ld"
        > in Quenya texts (identical with the
        > Classical mode) and "lambe plus ando"
        > in English texts, seeing two divergent
        > spellings for the same letter
        > combination.

        I second that: Two different spellings that depend on the language.
        Another sample is the general use representation of syllables that
        begin with _y_: anna in Quenya (DTS 46 - The Manney Inscription) and
        in English (DTS 10 - The Brogan Tengwa-greetings, DTS 39 - Doodled
        Headlines), in Sindarin, however, yanta (DTS 49 - King's Letter, Third
        Version). (Note that both the Sindarin and the English letter are also
        used for the second parts of diphthongs.)

        [Yes, this I also gathered from your file on "General Use" :).]

        If we look at other modes where the ando-tyelle is used for voiced
        stops (and not for prenasalized voiced stops as in the classical
        Quenya use) and where the velar series is the quessetéma (and not the
        calmatéma as in the classical Quenya use), we see still more variation
        in the use of alda:

        In orthographic full writing modes of English, alda is often used for
        _ll_ (DTS 13 - Middle Page from the Book of Mazarbul, DTS 45, 48, 49,
        that is, all three King's Letters).

        In the Old English modes (DTS 50 - Edwin Lowdham's Manuscript, Text I,
        DTS 51 - Edwin Lowdham's Manuscript, Text II), it's used for _ld_,
        just as in Quenya.

        So there are four different options in the use of alda: Either for
        _lh_, for _ld_, for _ll_, or not used at all. It seems not to belong
        to the stable tengwar.

        ---------------------------
        j. 'mach' wust
        http://machhezan.tripod.com
        ---------------------------

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • j_mach_wust
        ... I guess you didn t. But most are stable if we don t consider the Elvish modes of old, the mode of Beleriand and the classical Quenya mode. ... j. mach
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 6, 2005
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          Dave 'Hísilómë' wrote:
          > As for "stable" tengwar (if by this we mean "representing the same
          > sound in _all_ 'Tolkien-attested' modes", incl. the Classical Quenya
          > Mode, the Mode of Gondor ["Standard Sindarin"], the Full Mode of
          > Gondor, the Mode of Beleriand, as well as the phonemic/phonetic and
          > orthographic English modes [both oomatehtar and full modes]), there
          > really aren't that many (according to this strict standard), except
          > tinco, parma, formen, lambe, silme, hyarmen--or did I forget any/make
          > a mistake?

          I guess you didn't. But most are "stable" if we don't consider the
          Elvish modes of old, the mode of Beleriand and the classical Quenya mode.

          ---------------------------
          j. 'mach' wust
          http://machhezan.tripod.com
          ---------------------------
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