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Re: [elfscript] Under-dot in DTS 42 (Idril's Device)

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  • Dave
    Thanks for all the replies, also to Gildor Inglorion and Arden R. Smith! (Guess I have to stock up on Vinyar Tengwar back issues...) I had somehow overlooked
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 5, 2005
      Thanks for all the replies, also to Gildor Inglorion and Arden R. Smith! (Guess I have to stock up on Vinyar Tengwar back issues...)

      I had somehow "overlooked" that there's no "a" in the entire device title (rather unusual for a _Quenya_ sample, however short), but now that you've mentioned it, I would agree that this could be an example of writing Quenya with omitted A-tehta. It would certainly explain the dot!

      In some other examples for "general use", however, I have found no such omission of the A-tehta (e.g. DTS 46, Manney Inscription, or DTS 56, Hobbits in Holland autograph, which both have A-tehtar; or in DTS 54, Heru i Million, where no "a" occurs, but we see no dot under hyarmen either to indicate it's not read "aheru" or something--in this sample the tehtar are placed on the following tengwar, as is also possible in the General Use mode, no matter what the language).
      You mention another one, though, in "Life and Legend". I'm not sure, but my guess is you're referring to "Calma Hendas"?

      That would indeed be another example for omitted A-tehtar. So I guess one can conclude that in the General Use mode, as in other modes, both the writing of A-tehta or their omission (using under-dots where required to indicate "read no 'a' here") are acceptable practice.

      Hísilómë


      ----- Original Message -----
      I wrote:

      > Does anybody have any idea what the under-dot is doing under the final
      > "n" in _Menelluin_ in DTS 42 (AI 189, Idril's Device)? It's definitely
      > there, but I'm at a loss to explain why.

      Johan Winge answered:

      I don't know either, but I guess it signifies that the nummen should not
      be followed by an otherwise implicit /a/. The a tehta is not used in this
      inscription, and the nuumen is the only tengwa without any other tehta; in
      Appendix E Tolkien writes in a footnote that "in Quenya in which a was
      very frequent, its vowel sign was often omitted altogether. ...". He
      doesn't mention how to differ between when a tengwa should be followed by
      an /a/, and when no vowel is to follow, except that it could be deduced
      from the phonological rules of the languge. However, another tengwar
      inscription, in Life and Legend, p. 82, don't make use of the a tehta, but
      instead uses the under dot to signify that no a is to follow.

      What's interesting is that this text also uses the over bar to signify
      nasalization.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Johan Winge
      On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 19:52:57 -0800, Arden R.Smith ... Ah, yes. Now I remember having read this article! Thanks for pointing it out. ...
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 6, 2005
        On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 19:52:57 -0800, Arden R.Smith <erilaz@...>
        wrote:

        > On Jan 5, 2005, at 8:44 AM, Johan Winge wrote:
        >
        >> I don't know either, but I guess it signifies that the nummen should
        >> not be followed by an otherwise implicit /a/.
        >
        > Quite correct. See my article, "The Subscript Dot: A New _Tehta_
        > Usage," in _Vinyar Tengwar_ #25 (September 1992), pp. 6-7.

        Ah, yes. Now I remember having read this article! Thanks for pointing it
        out.

        On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:31:29 +0800, Dave <david.vdpeet@...> wrote:
        >
        > You mention another one, though, in "Life and Legend". I'm not sure, but
        > my guess is you're referring to "Calma Hendas"?

        Yes, indeed.

        Regards,
        Johan Winge
      • j_mach_wust
        ... That s my opinion, too. ... I second that: Two different spellings that depend on the language. Another sample is the general use representation of
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 6, 2005
          Dave 'Hísilómë' wrote:
          > I guess it's safe to assume that the
          > over-bar is standard for
          > nasalizationin the "general use" mode.

          That's my opinion, too.


          > With "ld", there are two examples in
          > Quenya texts (Idril's Device and DTS
          > 38 [AI 182], RotK Jacket Draft), both
          > using alda, while in English texts I
          > found only "Ronald" in DTS 5 (LotR
          > title page inscription)--somehow alda
          > would look "strange" in a word-final
          > position (where in Quenya, of course,
          > it would never occur). I found no
          > evidence for "ld" in a medial position
          > in English, but maybe I've overlooked
          > something?
          >
          > "General use", I thus assume for the
          > time being, would spell alda for "ld"
          > in Quenya texts (identical with the
          > Classical mode) and "lambe plus ando"
          > in English texts, seeing two divergent
          > spellings for the same letter
          > combination.

          I second that: Two different spellings that depend on the language.
          Another sample is the general use representation of syllables that
          begin with _y_: anna in Quenya (DTS 46 - The Manney Inscription) and
          in English (DTS 10 - The Brogan Tengwa-greetings, DTS 39 - Doodled
          Headlines), in Sindarin, however, yanta (DTS 49 - King's Letter, Third
          Version). (Note that both the Sindarin and the English letter are also
          used for the second parts of diphthongs.)

          If we look at other modes where the ando-tyelle is used for voiced
          stops (and not for prenasalized voiced stops as in the classical
          Quenya use) and where the velar series is the quessetéma (and not the
          calmatéma as in the classical Quenya use), we see still more variation
          in the use of alda:

          In orthographic full writing modes of English, alda is often used for
          _ll_ (DTS 13 - Middle Page from the Book of Mazarbul, DTS 45, 48, 49,
          that is, all three King's Letters).

          In the Old English modes (DTS 50 - Edwin Lowdham's Manuscript, Text I,
          DTS 51 - Edwin Lowdham's Manuscript, Text II), it's used for _ld_,
          just as in Quenya.

          So there are four different options in the use of alda: Either for
          _lh_, for _ld_, for _ll_, or not used at all. It seems not to belong
          to the stable tengwar.

          ---------------------------
          j. 'mach' wust
          http://machhezan.tripod.com
          ---------------------------
        • Dave
          I m glad our opinions concur on the spelling of nasalization and ld in the general use mode ! Thanks for pointing out additional details on ld . As for
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 6, 2005
            I'm glad our opinions concur on the spelling of nasalization and "ld" in the "general use mode"! Thanks for pointing out additional details on "ld".

            As for "stable" tengwar (if by this we mean "representing the same sound in _all_ 'Tolkien-attested' modes", incl. the Classical Quenya Mode, the Mode of Gondor ["Standard Sindarin"], the Full Mode of Gondor, the Mode of Beleriand, as well as the phonemic/phonetic and orthographic English modes [both oomatehtar and full modes]), there really aren't that many (according to this strict standard), except tinco, parma, formen, lambe, silme, hyarmen--or did I forget any/make a mistake?

            Hísilómë

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: j_mach_wust
            To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 7:24 PM
            Subject: [elfscript] Re: Spelling of "nd" and "ld"



            Dave 'Hísilómë' wrote:
            > I guess it's safe to assume that the
            > over-bar is standard for
            > nasalizationin the "general use" mode.

            That's my opinion, too.


            > With "ld", there are two examples in
            > Quenya texts (Idril's Device and DTS
            > 38 [AI 182], RotK Jacket Draft), both
            > using alda, while in English texts I
            > found only "Ronald" in DTS 5 (LotR
            > title page inscription)--somehow alda
            > would look "strange" in a word-final
            > position (where in Quenya, of course,
            > it would never occur). I found no
            > evidence for "ld" in a medial position
            > in English, but maybe I've overlooked
            > something?
            >
            > "General use", I thus assume for the
            > time being, would spell alda for "ld"
            > in Quenya texts (identical with the
            > Classical mode) and "lambe plus ando"
            > in English texts, seeing two divergent
            > spellings for the same letter
            > combination.

            I second that: Two different spellings that depend on the language.
            Another sample is the general use representation of syllables that
            begin with _y_: anna in Quenya (DTS 46 - The Manney Inscription) and
            in English (DTS 10 - The Brogan Tengwa-greetings, DTS 39 - Doodled
            Headlines), in Sindarin, however, yanta (DTS 49 - King's Letter, Third
            Version). (Note that both the Sindarin and the English letter are also
            used for the second parts of diphthongs.)

            [Yes, this I also gathered from your file on "General Use" :).]

            If we look at other modes where the ando-tyelle is used for voiced
            stops (and not for prenasalized voiced stops as in the classical
            Quenya use) and where the velar series is the quessetéma (and not the
            calmatéma as in the classical Quenya use), we see still more variation
            in the use of alda:

            In orthographic full writing modes of English, alda is often used for
            _ll_ (DTS 13 - Middle Page from the Book of Mazarbul, DTS 45, 48, 49,
            that is, all three King's Letters).

            In the Old English modes (DTS 50 - Edwin Lowdham's Manuscript, Text I,
            DTS 51 - Edwin Lowdham's Manuscript, Text II), it's used for _ld_,
            just as in Quenya.

            So there are four different options in the use of alda: Either for
            _lh_, for _ld_, for _ll_, or not used at all. It seems not to belong
            to the stable tengwar.

            ---------------------------
            j. 'mach' wust
            http://machhezan.tripod.com
            ---------------------------

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • j_mach_wust
            ... I guess you didn t. But most are stable if we don t consider the Elvish modes of old, the mode of Beleriand and the classical Quenya mode. ... j. mach
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 6, 2005
              Dave 'Hísilómë' wrote:
              > As for "stable" tengwar (if by this we mean "representing the same
              > sound in _all_ 'Tolkien-attested' modes", incl. the Classical Quenya
              > Mode, the Mode of Gondor ["Standard Sindarin"], the Full Mode of
              > Gondor, the Mode of Beleriand, as well as the phonemic/phonetic and
              > orthographic English modes [both oomatehtar and full modes]), there
              > really aren't that many (according to this strict standard), except
              > tinco, parma, formen, lambe, silme, hyarmen--or did I forget any/make
              > a mistake?

              I guess you didn't. But most are "stable" if we don't consider the
              Elvish modes of old, the mode of Beleriand and the classical Quenya mode.

              ---------------------------
              j. 'mach' wust
              http://machhezan.tripod.com
              ---------------------------
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