Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [elfscript] Under-dot in DTS 42 (Idril's Device)

Expand Messages
  • Arden R. Smith
    ... Quite correct. See my article, The Subscript Dot: A New _Tehta_ Usage, in _Vinyar Tengwar_ #25 (September 1992), pp. 6-7.
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 5, 2005
      On Jan 5, 2005, at 8:44 AM, Johan Winge wrote:

      >> Does anybody have any idea what the under-dot is doing under the final
      >> "n" in _Menelluin_ in DTS 42 (AI 189, Idril's Device)? It's definitely
      >> there, but I'm at a loss to explain why.
      >
      > I don't know either, but I guess it signifies that the nummen should
      > not
      > be followed by an otherwise implicit /a/.

      Quite correct. See my article, "The Subscript Dot: A New _Tehta_
      Usage," in _Vinyar Tengwar_ #25 (September 1992), pp. 6-7.

      ***************************************************
      Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

      Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
      --Elvish proverb

      ***************************************************
    • Dave
      Hm. I think I was not specific enough. I was not thinking about a potential for confusion as much as wondering how ld / rd on the one hand, and
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 5, 2005
        Hm. I think I was not specific enough.
        I was not thinking about a potential
        for confusion as much as wondering how
        "ld"/"rd" on the one hand, and
        "nd"/"mb"/"nt"/"mp" on the other,
        would _usually_ be spelled in the
        "general use" mode.

        For "nd" etc. we usually see the use
        of an over-bar to indicate
        nasalization, as for example in the
        Howlett Rivendell Inscriptions (DTS
        58), which is also where Tolkien
        mentions the term "general use", and
        illustrates it in two spellings of
        Rivendell, one with tehtar on
        preceding, the other on following
        consonants. Both show the over-bar for
        "nd".
        All other samples that could be
        considered "general use" mode and
        contain any of the four relevant
        combinations also use the over-bar for
        nasalization (main example would be
        DTS 49, Third Copy of the King's
        Letter [Sindarin], but also DTS 10,
        Brogan Letter [English]).
        Now this would _not_ be Classical
        Quenya Mode, and since even when
        writing Quenya, the over-bar is
        employed (as in Idril's Device title),
        I guess it's safe to assume that the
        over-bar is standard for
        nasalizationin the "general use" mode.

        With "ld", there are two examples in
        Quenya texts (Idril's Device and DTS
        38 [AI 182], RotK Jacket Draft), both
        using alda, while in English texts I
        found only "Ronald" in DTS 5 (LotR
        title page inscription)--somehow alda
        would look "strange" in a word-final
        position (where in Quenya, of course,
        it would never occur). I found no
        evidence for "ld" in a medial position
        in English, but maybe I've overlooked
        something?

        "General use", I thus assume for the
        time being, would spell alda for "ld"
        in Quenya texts (identical with the
        Classical mode) and "lambe plus ando"
        in English texts, seeing two divergent
        spellings for the same letter
        combination.

        Hisilome


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Gildor Inglorion"
        <elfiness@...>
        >
        > According to App. E, in Sindarin
        modes, Alda is to be
        > used only initially. So I think
        someone who writes
        > something addressed to Quenya
        speakers, knows that the
        > reader wouldn't be confused if he
        saw it in another
        > place
        >
        > > Also, while the spelling of "nd"
        seems to be
        > > "General Use" alright, I wonder
        whether the use of
        > > alda for "ld" (instead of lambe
        plus ando) in
        > > _Iirildeo_ does not point at the
        Classical Quenya
        > > mode--so maybe we have conflicting
        evidence here?
        >
      • Dave
        Thanks for all the replies, also to Gildor Inglorion and Arden R. Smith! (Guess I have to stock up on Vinyar Tengwar back issues...) I had somehow overlooked
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 5, 2005
          Thanks for all the replies, also to Gildor Inglorion and Arden R. Smith! (Guess I have to stock up on Vinyar Tengwar back issues...)

          I had somehow "overlooked" that there's no "a" in the entire device title (rather unusual for a _Quenya_ sample, however short), but now that you've mentioned it, I would agree that this could be an example of writing Quenya with omitted A-tehta. It would certainly explain the dot!

          In some other examples for "general use", however, I have found no such omission of the A-tehta (e.g. DTS 46, Manney Inscription, or DTS 56, Hobbits in Holland autograph, which both have A-tehtar; or in DTS 54, Heru i Million, where no "a" occurs, but we see no dot under hyarmen either to indicate it's not read "aheru" or something--in this sample the tehtar are placed on the following tengwar, as is also possible in the General Use mode, no matter what the language).
          You mention another one, though, in "Life and Legend". I'm not sure, but my guess is you're referring to "Calma Hendas"?

          That would indeed be another example for omitted A-tehtar. So I guess one can conclude that in the General Use mode, as in other modes, both the writing of A-tehta or their omission (using under-dots where required to indicate "read no 'a' here") are acceptable practice.

          Hísilómë


          ----- Original Message -----
          I wrote:

          > Does anybody have any idea what the under-dot is doing under the final
          > "n" in _Menelluin_ in DTS 42 (AI 189, Idril's Device)? It's definitely
          > there, but I'm at a loss to explain why.

          Johan Winge answered:

          I don't know either, but I guess it signifies that the nummen should not
          be followed by an otherwise implicit /a/. The a tehta is not used in this
          inscription, and the nuumen is the only tengwa without any other tehta; in
          Appendix E Tolkien writes in a footnote that "in Quenya in which a was
          very frequent, its vowel sign was often omitted altogether. ...". He
          doesn't mention how to differ between when a tengwa should be followed by
          an /a/, and when no vowel is to follow, except that it could be deduced
          from the phonological rules of the languge. However, another tengwar
          inscription, in Life and Legend, p. 82, don't make use of the a tehta, but
          instead uses the under dot to signify that no a is to follow.

          What's interesting is that this text also uses the over bar to signify
          nasalization.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Johan Winge
          On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 19:52:57 -0800, Arden R.Smith ... Ah, yes. Now I remember having read this article! Thanks for pointing it out. ...
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 6, 2005
            On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 19:52:57 -0800, Arden R.Smith <erilaz@...>
            wrote:

            > On Jan 5, 2005, at 8:44 AM, Johan Winge wrote:
            >
            >> I don't know either, but I guess it signifies that the nummen should
            >> not be followed by an otherwise implicit /a/.
            >
            > Quite correct. See my article, "The Subscript Dot: A New _Tehta_
            > Usage," in _Vinyar Tengwar_ #25 (September 1992), pp. 6-7.

            Ah, yes. Now I remember having read this article! Thanks for pointing it
            out.

            On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:31:29 +0800, Dave <david.vdpeet@...> wrote:
            >
            > You mention another one, though, in "Life and Legend". I'm not sure, but
            > my guess is you're referring to "Calma Hendas"?

            Yes, indeed.

            Regards,
            Johan Winge
          • j_mach_wust
            ... That s my opinion, too. ... I second that: Two different spellings that depend on the language. Another sample is the general use representation of
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 6, 2005
              Dave 'Hísilómë' wrote:
              > I guess it's safe to assume that the
              > over-bar is standard for
              > nasalizationin the "general use" mode.

              That's my opinion, too.


              > With "ld", there are two examples in
              > Quenya texts (Idril's Device and DTS
              > 38 [AI 182], RotK Jacket Draft), both
              > using alda, while in English texts I
              > found only "Ronald" in DTS 5 (LotR
              > title page inscription)--somehow alda
              > would look "strange" in a word-final
              > position (where in Quenya, of course,
              > it would never occur). I found no
              > evidence for "ld" in a medial position
              > in English, but maybe I've overlooked
              > something?
              >
              > "General use", I thus assume for the
              > time being, would spell alda for "ld"
              > in Quenya texts (identical with the
              > Classical mode) and "lambe plus ando"
              > in English texts, seeing two divergent
              > spellings for the same letter
              > combination.

              I second that: Two different spellings that depend on the language.
              Another sample is the general use representation of syllables that
              begin with _y_: anna in Quenya (DTS 46 - The Manney Inscription) and
              in English (DTS 10 - The Brogan Tengwa-greetings, DTS 39 - Doodled
              Headlines), in Sindarin, however, yanta (DTS 49 - King's Letter, Third
              Version). (Note that both the Sindarin and the English letter are also
              used for the second parts of diphthongs.)

              If we look at other modes where the ando-tyelle is used for voiced
              stops (and not for prenasalized voiced stops as in the classical
              Quenya use) and where the velar series is the quessetéma (and not the
              calmatéma as in the classical Quenya use), we see still more variation
              in the use of alda:

              In orthographic full writing modes of English, alda is often used for
              _ll_ (DTS 13 - Middle Page from the Book of Mazarbul, DTS 45, 48, 49,
              that is, all three King's Letters).

              In the Old English modes (DTS 50 - Edwin Lowdham's Manuscript, Text I,
              DTS 51 - Edwin Lowdham's Manuscript, Text II), it's used for _ld_,
              just as in Quenya.

              So there are four different options in the use of alda: Either for
              _lh_, for _ld_, for _ll_, or not used at all. It seems not to belong
              to the stable tengwar.

              ---------------------------
              j. 'mach' wust
              http://machhezan.tripod.com
              ---------------------------
            • Dave
              I m glad our opinions concur on the spelling of nasalization and ld in the general use mode ! Thanks for pointing out additional details on ld . As for
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 6, 2005
                I'm glad our opinions concur on the spelling of nasalization and "ld" in the "general use mode"! Thanks for pointing out additional details on "ld".

                As for "stable" tengwar (if by this we mean "representing the same sound in _all_ 'Tolkien-attested' modes", incl. the Classical Quenya Mode, the Mode of Gondor ["Standard Sindarin"], the Full Mode of Gondor, the Mode of Beleriand, as well as the phonemic/phonetic and orthographic English modes [both oomatehtar and full modes]), there really aren't that many (according to this strict standard), except tinco, parma, formen, lambe, silme, hyarmen--or did I forget any/make a mistake?

                Hísilómë

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: j_mach_wust
                To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 7:24 PM
                Subject: [elfscript] Re: Spelling of "nd" and "ld"



                Dave 'Hísilómë' wrote:
                > I guess it's safe to assume that the
                > over-bar is standard for
                > nasalizationin the "general use" mode.

                That's my opinion, too.


                > With "ld", there are two examples in
                > Quenya texts (Idril's Device and DTS
                > 38 [AI 182], RotK Jacket Draft), both
                > using alda, while in English texts I
                > found only "Ronald" in DTS 5 (LotR
                > title page inscription)--somehow alda
                > would look "strange" in a word-final
                > position (where in Quenya, of course,
                > it would never occur). I found no
                > evidence for "ld" in a medial position
                > in English, but maybe I've overlooked
                > something?
                >
                > "General use", I thus assume for the
                > time being, would spell alda for "ld"
                > in Quenya texts (identical with the
                > Classical mode) and "lambe plus ando"
                > in English texts, seeing two divergent
                > spellings for the same letter
                > combination.

                I second that: Two different spellings that depend on the language.
                Another sample is the general use representation of syllables that
                begin with _y_: anna in Quenya (DTS 46 - The Manney Inscription) and
                in English (DTS 10 - The Brogan Tengwa-greetings, DTS 39 - Doodled
                Headlines), in Sindarin, however, yanta (DTS 49 - King's Letter, Third
                Version). (Note that both the Sindarin and the English letter are also
                used for the second parts of diphthongs.)

                [Yes, this I also gathered from your file on "General Use" :).]

                If we look at other modes where the ando-tyelle is used for voiced
                stops (and not for prenasalized voiced stops as in the classical
                Quenya use) and where the velar series is the quessetéma (and not the
                calmatéma as in the classical Quenya use), we see still more variation
                in the use of alda:

                In orthographic full writing modes of English, alda is often used for
                _ll_ (DTS 13 - Middle Page from the Book of Mazarbul, DTS 45, 48, 49,
                that is, all three King's Letters).

                In the Old English modes (DTS 50 - Edwin Lowdham's Manuscript, Text I,
                DTS 51 - Edwin Lowdham's Manuscript, Text II), it's used for _ld_,
                just as in Quenya.

                So there are four different options in the use of alda: Either for
                _lh_, for _ld_, for _ll_, or not used at all. It seems not to belong
                to the stable tengwar.

                ---------------------------
                j. 'mach' wust
                http://machhezan.tripod.com
                ---------------------------

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • j_mach_wust
                ... I guess you didn t. But most are stable if we don t consider the Elvish modes of old, the mode of Beleriand and the classical Quenya mode. ... j. mach
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 6, 2005
                  Dave 'Hísilómë' wrote:
                  > As for "stable" tengwar (if by this we mean "representing the same
                  > sound in _all_ 'Tolkien-attested' modes", incl. the Classical Quenya
                  > Mode, the Mode of Gondor ["Standard Sindarin"], the Full Mode of
                  > Gondor, the Mode of Beleriand, as well as the phonemic/phonetic and
                  > orthographic English modes [both oomatehtar and full modes]), there
                  > really aren't that many (according to this strict standard), except
                  > tinco, parma, formen, lambe, silme, hyarmen--or did I forget any/make
                  > a mistake?

                  I guess you didn't. But most are "stable" if we don't consider the
                  Elvish modes of old, the mode of Beleriand and the classical Quenya mode.

                  ---------------------------
                  j. 'mach' wust
                  http://machhezan.tripod.com
                  ---------------------------
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.