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Under-dot in DTS 42 (Idril's Device) / Spelling of "nd" and "ld"

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  • Dave
    Hello, a Happy New Year to everyone! Does anybody have any idea what the under-dot is doing under the final n in _Menelluin_ in DTS 42 (AI 189, Idril s
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 5, 2005
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      Hello,

      a Happy New Year to everyone!

      Does anybody have any idea what the under-dot is doing under the final "n" in _Menelluin_ in DTS 42 (AI 189, Idril's Device)? It's definitely there, but I'm at a loss to explain why.

      The fact that the two occurrences of "nd" in this short sample (_Ondolindello_) are spelled with ando plus an over-bar seems to indicate that we are dealing with the General Use mode here (in the Classical Quenya mode a "simple" ando would suffice), but even this would not account for the dot under the second nuumen, as far as I can tell.

      So is this likely to be a slip-up, or might it have any significance?

      Also, while the spelling of "nd" seems to be "General Use" alright, I wonder whether the use of alda for "ld" (instead of lambe plus ando) in _Iirildeo_ does not point at the Classical Quenya mode--so maybe we have conflicting evidence here?

      Hisilome



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Johan Winge
      ... I don t know either, but I guess it signifies that the nummen should not be followed by an otherwise implicit /a/. The a tehta is not used in this
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 5, 2005
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        On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 23:20:22 +0800, Dave <david.vdpeet@...> wrote:

        > a Happy New Year to everyone!

        ...and to you!

        > Does anybody have any idea what the under-dot is doing under the final
        > "n" in _Menelluin_ in DTS 42 (AI 189, Idril's Device)? It's definitely
        > there, but I'm at a loss to explain why.

        I don't know either, but I guess it signifies that the nummen should not
        be followed by an otherwise implicit /a/. The a tehta is not used in this
        inscription, and the nuumen is the only tengwa without any other tehta; in
        Appendix E Tolkien writes in a footnote that "in Quenya in which a was
        very frequent, its vowel sign was often omitted altogether. ...". He
        doesn't mention how to differ between when a tengwa should be followed by
        an /a/, and when no vowel is to follow, except that it could be deduced
        from the phonological rules of the languge. However, another tengwar
        inscription, in Life and Legend, p. 82, don't make use of the a tehta, but
        instead uses the under dot to signify that no a is to follow.

        What's interesting is that this text also uses the over bar to signify
        nasalization.

        Regards,
        Johan Winge
      • Gildor Inglorion
        Another specimen of this is I think a Numenorean name in Notion Club Papers ... ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 5, 2005
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          Another specimen of this is I think a Numenorean name
          in Notion Club Papers

          > altogether. ...". He
          > doesn't mention how to differ between when a tengwa
          > should be followed by
          > an /a/, and when no vowel is to follow, except that
          > it could be deduced
          > from the phonological rules of the languge.
          > However, another tengwar
          > inscription, in Life and Legend, p. 82, don't make
          > use of the a tehta, but
          > instead uses the under dot to signify that no a is
          > to follow.

          ____________________________________________________________
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        • Gildor Inglorion
          According to App. E, in Sindarin modes, Alda is to be used only initially. So I think someone who writes something addressed to Quenya speakers, knows that the
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 5, 2005
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            According to App. E, in Sindarin modes, Alda is to be
            used only initially. So I think someone who writes
            something addressed to Quenya speakers, knows that the
            reader wouldn't be confused if he saw it in another
            place

            > Also, while the spelling of "nd" seems to be
            > "General Use" alright, I wonder whether the use of
            > alda for "ld" (instead of lambe plus ando) in
            > _Iirildeo_ does not point at the Classical Quenya
            > mode--so maybe we have conflicting evidence here?

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          • Arden R. Smith
            ... Quite correct. See my article, The Subscript Dot: A New _Tehta_ Usage, in _Vinyar Tengwar_ #25 (September 1992), pp. 6-7.
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 5, 2005
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              On Jan 5, 2005, at 8:44 AM, Johan Winge wrote:

              >> Does anybody have any idea what the under-dot is doing under the final
              >> "n" in _Menelluin_ in DTS 42 (AI 189, Idril's Device)? It's definitely
              >> there, but I'm at a loss to explain why.
              >
              > I don't know either, but I guess it signifies that the nummen should
              > not
              > be followed by an otherwise implicit /a/.

              Quite correct. See my article, "The Subscript Dot: A New _Tehta_
              Usage," in _Vinyar Tengwar_ #25 (September 1992), pp. 6-7.

              ***************************************************
              Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

              Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
              --Elvish proverb

              ***************************************************
            • Dave
              Hm. I think I was not specific enough. I was not thinking about a potential for confusion as much as wondering how ld / rd on the one hand, and
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 5, 2005
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                Hm. I think I was not specific enough.
                I was not thinking about a potential
                for confusion as much as wondering how
                "ld"/"rd" on the one hand, and
                "nd"/"mb"/"nt"/"mp" on the other,
                would _usually_ be spelled in the
                "general use" mode.

                For "nd" etc. we usually see the use
                of an over-bar to indicate
                nasalization, as for example in the
                Howlett Rivendell Inscriptions (DTS
                58), which is also where Tolkien
                mentions the term "general use", and
                illustrates it in two spellings of
                Rivendell, one with tehtar on
                preceding, the other on following
                consonants. Both show the over-bar for
                "nd".
                All other samples that could be
                considered "general use" mode and
                contain any of the four relevant
                combinations also use the over-bar for
                nasalization (main example would be
                DTS 49, Third Copy of the King's
                Letter [Sindarin], but also DTS 10,
                Brogan Letter [English]).
                Now this would _not_ be Classical
                Quenya Mode, and since even when
                writing Quenya, the over-bar is
                employed (as in Idril's Device title),
                I guess it's safe to assume that the
                over-bar is standard for
                nasalizationin the "general use" mode.

                With "ld", there are two examples in
                Quenya texts (Idril's Device and DTS
                38 [AI 182], RotK Jacket Draft), both
                using alda, while in English texts I
                found only "Ronald" in DTS 5 (LotR
                title page inscription)--somehow alda
                would look "strange" in a word-final
                position (where in Quenya, of course,
                it would never occur). I found no
                evidence for "ld" in a medial position
                in English, but maybe I've overlooked
                something?

                "General use", I thus assume for the
                time being, would spell alda for "ld"
                in Quenya texts (identical with the
                Classical mode) and "lambe plus ando"
                in English texts, seeing two divergent
                spellings for the same letter
                combination.

                Hisilome


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Gildor Inglorion"
                <elfiness@...>
                >
                > According to App. E, in Sindarin
                modes, Alda is to be
                > used only initially. So I think
                someone who writes
                > something addressed to Quenya
                speakers, knows that the
                > reader wouldn't be confused if he
                saw it in another
                > place
                >
                > > Also, while the spelling of "nd"
                seems to be
                > > "General Use" alright, I wonder
                whether the use of
                > > alda for "ld" (instead of lambe
                plus ando) in
                > > _Iirildeo_ does not point at the
                Classical Quenya
                > > mode--so maybe we have conflicting
                evidence here?
                >
              • Dave
                Thanks for all the replies, also to Gildor Inglorion and Arden R. Smith! (Guess I have to stock up on Vinyar Tengwar back issues...) I had somehow overlooked
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 5, 2005
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                  Thanks for all the replies, also to Gildor Inglorion and Arden R. Smith! (Guess I have to stock up on Vinyar Tengwar back issues...)

                  I had somehow "overlooked" that there's no "a" in the entire device title (rather unusual for a _Quenya_ sample, however short), but now that you've mentioned it, I would agree that this could be an example of writing Quenya with omitted A-tehta. It would certainly explain the dot!

                  In some other examples for "general use", however, I have found no such omission of the A-tehta (e.g. DTS 46, Manney Inscription, or DTS 56, Hobbits in Holland autograph, which both have A-tehtar; or in DTS 54, Heru i Million, where no "a" occurs, but we see no dot under hyarmen either to indicate it's not read "aheru" or something--in this sample the tehtar are placed on the following tengwar, as is also possible in the General Use mode, no matter what the language).
                  You mention another one, though, in "Life and Legend". I'm not sure, but my guess is you're referring to "Calma Hendas"?

                  That would indeed be another example for omitted A-tehtar. So I guess one can conclude that in the General Use mode, as in other modes, both the writing of A-tehta or their omission (using under-dots where required to indicate "read no 'a' here") are acceptable practice.

                  Hísilómë


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  I wrote:

                  > Does anybody have any idea what the under-dot is doing under the final
                  > "n" in _Menelluin_ in DTS 42 (AI 189, Idril's Device)? It's definitely
                  > there, but I'm at a loss to explain why.

                  Johan Winge answered:

                  I don't know either, but I guess it signifies that the nummen should not
                  be followed by an otherwise implicit /a/. The a tehta is not used in this
                  inscription, and the nuumen is the only tengwa without any other tehta; in
                  Appendix E Tolkien writes in a footnote that "in Quenya in which a was
                  very frequent, its vowel sign was often omitted altogether. ...". He
                  doesn't mention how to differ between when a tengwa should be followed by
                  an /a/, and when no vowel is to follow, except that it could be deduced
                  from the phonological rules of the languge. However, another tengwar
                  inscription, in Life and Legend, p. 82, don't make use of the a tehta, but
                  instead uses the under dot to signify that no a is to follow.

                  What's interesting is that this text also uses the over bar to signify
                  nasalization.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Johan Winge
                  On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 19:52:57 -0800, Arden R.Smith ... Ah, yes. Now I remember having read this article! Thanks for pointing it out. ...
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 6, 2005
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                    On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 19:52:57 -0800, Arden R.Smith <erilaz@...>
                    wrote:

                    > On Jan 5, 2005, at 8:44 AM, Johan Winge wrote:
                    >
                    >> I don't know either, but I guess it signifies that the nummen should
                    >> not be followed by an otherwise implicit /a/.
                    >
                    > Quite correct. See my article, "The Subscript Dot: A New _Tehta_
                    > Usage," in _Vinyar Tengwar_ #25 (September 1992), pp. 6-7.

                    Ah, yes. Now I remember having read this article! Thanks for pointing it
                    out.

                    On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:31:29 +0800, Dave <david.vdpeet@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > You mention another one, though, in "Life and Legend". I'm not sure, but
                    > my guess is you're referring to "Calma Hendas"?

                    Yes, indeed.

                    Regards,
                    Johan Winge
                  • j_mach_wust
                    ... That s my opinion, too. ... I second that: Two different spellings that depend on the language. Another sample is the general use representation of
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 6, 2005
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                      Dave 'Hísilómë' wrote:
                      > I guess it's safe to assume that the
                      > over-bar is standard for
                      > nasalizationin the "general use" mode.

                      That's my opinion, too.


                      > With "ld", there are two examples in
                      > Quenya texts (Idril's Device and DTS
                      > 38 [AI 182], RotK Jacket Draft), both
                      > using alda, while in English texts I
                      > found only "Ronald" in DTS 5 (LotR
                      > title page inscription)--somehow alda
                      > would look "strange" in a word-final
                      > position (where in Quenya, of course,
                      > it would never occur). I found no
                      > evidence for "ld" in a medial position
                      > in English, but maybe I've overlooked
                      > something?
                      >
                      > "General use", I thus assume for the
                      > time being, would spell alda for "ld"
                      > in Quenya texts (identical with the
                      > Classical mode) and "lambe plus ando"
                      > in English texts, seeing two divergent
                      > spellings for the same letter
                      > combination.

                      I second that: Two different spellings that depend on the language.
                      Another sample is the general use representation of syllables that
                      begin with _y_: anna in Quenya (DTS 46 - The Manney Inscription) and
                      in English (DTS 10 - The Brogan Tengwa-greetings, DTS 39 - Doodled
                      Headlines), in Sindarin, however, yanta (DTS 49 - King's Letter, Third
                      Version). (Note that both the Sindarin and the English letter are also
                      used for the second parts of diphthongs.)

                      If we look at other modes where the ando-tyelle is used for voiced
                      stops (and not for prenasalized voiced stops as in the classical
                      Quenya use) and where the velar series is the quessetéma (and not the
                      calmatéma as in the classical Quenya use), we see still more variation
                      in the use of alda:

                      In orthographic full writing modes of English, alda is often used for
                      _ll_ (DTS 13 - Middle Page from the Book of Mazarbul, DTS 45, 48, 49,
                      that is, all three King's Letters).

                      In the Old English modes (DTS 50 - Edwin Lowdham's Manuscript, Text I,
                      DTS 51 - Edwin Lowdham's Manuscript, Text II), it's used for _ld_,
                      just as in Quenya.

                      So there are four different options in the use of alda: Either for
                      _lh_, for _ld_, for _ll_, or not used at all. It seems not to belong
                      to the stable tengwar.

                      ---------------------------
                      j. 'mach' wust
                      http://machhezan.tripod.com
                      ---------------------------
                    • Dave
                      I m glad our opinions concur on the spelling of nasalization and ld in the general use mode ! Thanks for pointing out additional details on ld . As for
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jan 6, 2005
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                        I'm glad our opinions concur on the spelling of nasalization and "ld" in the "general use mode"! Thanks for pointing out additional details on "ld".

                        As for "stable" tengwar (if by this we mean "representing the same sound in _all_ 'Tolkien-attested' modes", incl. the Classical Quenya Mode, the Mode of Gondor ["Standard Sindarin"], the Full Mode of Gondor, the Mode of Beleriand, as well as the phonemic/phonetic and orthographic English modes [both oomatehtar and full modes]), there really aren't that many (according to this strict standard), except tinco, parma, formen, lambe, silme, hyarmen--or did I forget any/make a mistake?

                        Hísilómë

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: j_mach_wust
                        To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 7:24 PM
                        Subject: [elfscript] Re: Spelling of "nd" and "ld"



                        Dave 'Hísilómë' wrote:
                        > I guess it's safe to assume that the
                        > over-bar is standard for
                        > nasalizationin the "general use" mode.

                        That's my opinion, too.


                        > With "ld", there are two examples in
                        > Quenya texts (Idril's Device and DTS
                        > 38 [AI 182], RotK Jacket Draft), both
                        > using alda, while in English texts I
                        > found only "Ronald" in DTS 5 (LotR
                        > title page inscription)--somehow alda
                        > would look "strange" in a word-final
                        > position (where in Quenya, of course,
                        > it would never occur). I found no
                        > evidence for "ld" in a medial position
                        > in English, but maybe I've overlooked
                        > something?
                        >
                        > "General use", I thus assume for the
                        > time being, would spell alda for "ld"
                        > in Quenya texts (identical with the
                        > Classical mode) and "lambe plus ando"
                        > in English texts, seeing two divergent
                        > spellings for the same letter
                        > combination.

                        I second that: Two different spellings that depend on the language.
                        Another sample is the general use representation of syllables that
                        begin with _y_: anna in Quenya (DTS 46 - The Manney Inscription) and
                        in English (DTS 10 - The Brogan Tengwa-greetings, DTS 39 - Doodled
                        Headlines), in Sindarin, however, yanta (DTS 49 - King's Letter, Third
                        Version). (Note that both the Sindarin and the English letter are also
                        used for the second parts of diphthongs.)

                        [Yes, this I also gathered from your file on "General Use" :).]

                        If we look at other modes where the ando-tyelle is used for voiced
                        stops (and not for prenasalized voiced stops as in the classical
                        Quenya use) and where the velar series is the quessetéma (and not the
                        calmatéma as in the classical Quenya use), we see still more variation
                        in the use of alda:

                        In orthographic full writing modes of English, alda is often used for
                        _ll_ (DTS 13 - Middle Page from the Book of Mazarbul, DTS 45, 48, 49,
                        that is, all three King's Letters).

                        In the Old English modes (DTS 50 - Edwin Lowdham's Manuscript, Text I,
                        DTS 51 - Edwin Lowdham's Manuscript, Text II), it's used for _ld_,
                        just as in Quenya.

                        So there are four different options in the use of alda: Either for
                        _lh_, for _ld_, for _ll_, or not used at all. It seems not to belong
                        to the stable tengwar.

                        ---------------------------
                        j. 'mach' wust
                        http://machhezan.tripod.com
                        ---------------------------

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • j_mach_wust
                        ... I guess you didn t. But most are stable if we don t consider the Elvish modes of old, the mode of Beleriand and the classical Quenya mode. ... j. mach
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jan 6, 2005
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                          Dave 'Hísilómë' wrote:
                          > As for "stable" tengwar (if by this we mean "representing the same
                          > sound in _all_ 'Tolkien-attested' modes", incl. the Classical Quenya
                          > Mode, the Mode of Gondor ["Standard Sindarin"], the Full Mode of
                          > Gondor, the Mode of Beleriand, as well as the phonemic/phonetic and
                          > orthographic English modes [both oomatehtar and full modes]), there
                          > really aren't that many (according to this strict standard), except
                          > tinco, parma, formen, lambe, silme, hyarmen--or did I forget any/make
                          > a mistake?

                          I guess you didn't. But most are "stable" if we don't consider the
                          Elvish modes of old, the mode of Beleriand and the classical Quenya mode.

                          ---------------------------
                          j. 'mach' wust
                          http://machhezan.tripod.com
                          ---------------------------
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