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Re: Christmas gift: Namarie analysis

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  • j_mach_wust
    On: http://www.uib.no/people/hnohf/namteng.pdf ... In DTS 58 (The Howlett Rivendell Inscriptions), Tolkien wrote mentioned the general use (applicable to both
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 4, 2005
      On: http://www.uib.no/people/hnohf/namteng.pdf

      I wrote:
      > > Thanks for uploading this commentary. Unfortunately, I must
      > > tell you that Vicente S. Velasco's commentary on DTS 19/20 is
      > > far from being recommendable. [Velasco] implies that the
      > > Quenya spelling described in app. E is identical to the
      > > spelling of DTS 19/20. Therefore, it's not an analysis but
      > > rather a thought-experiment about what the transcription of
      > > Galadriel's lament would look like if it were spelt strictly
      > > according to app. E (though he wasn't aware of this since he
      > > deduced certain claims about Quenya diachrony). He ignores
      > > that there are many different attested ways of spelling
      > > Quenya, and that therefore by no means we can imply that DTS
      > > 19/20 should be spelt according to app. E.

      Helge K. Fauskanger wrote:
      > Yes and no. It may be noted that the Quenya spelling described
      > in Appendix E is there called the normal spelling of the
      > language, providing some basis for regarding it as a "standard"
      > -- though it is clear that Tolkien did not always play by his
      > own rules.

      In DTS 58 (The Howlett Rivendell Inscriptions), Tolkien wrote
      mentioned "the general use (applicable to both S. and Q) of the period
      of the tale - not the specialized Q 'classical' use seen in the letter
      names".

      This means that at the end of the Third Age, people were normally
      spelling Quenya according to the the general use (as attested in DTS
      38, 42, 46 and 59).

      The Lord of the Rings is supposedly a translation from a book written
      at the period of the tale (of a little later). Based on the fact that
      the Quenya transcriptions of the Lord of the Ring write always _s_ and
      never _th_, we may assume that this was done as well in the general
      use orthography of Quenya. So this supports the above evidence.

      Therefore, someone who'd learn Quenya at the period of the tale would
      only know it in a written form that doesn't distinguish _s_ from _th_.
      So if he'd write something in the unusual classical mode, he'd be very
      prone to write silme instead of thúle.

      So I think that DTS 19/20 is a very plausible sample of what a man of
      Gondor could have written.

      The s-spellings in DTS 19/20 differ systematically from the claims on
      the s-spelling in app. E. Vicente S. Velasco has not tried to explain
      this (he's not even pointed it out), but just stated that it's
      "clearly an error or at least a lapse".


      > > the reconstructions of historical pronunciations that were
      > > made based on the spellings of the words "ve" and "enquantuva"
      > > are pointless.
      >
      > Well. In published sources at least, Tolkien doesn't explicitly
      > say that V representing earlier W was still written as Vilya
      > rather than Vala (the way he insists that the historical
      > spelling persisted in the case of S from earlier TH). Also, in
      > some positions W may have become V so early that it had already
      > happened by the time the Tengwar spelling was established.

      Vicente has shown very carefully that DTS 19/20 is not written
      according to Quenya diachrony. Nonetheless, in order to make
      assertions about Quenya diachrony, he pretends it were.


      And there's something I didn't notice in the first post: The first
      note sounds as if in DTS 48, the letters for _n_ and _r_ were
      confused. This isn't true. The only feature the mode of DTS 48 shares
      with the mode of Beleriand is the vowels, whereas its consonants are
      as in the general use. So maybe Vicente S. Velasco neglected the
      systematical differences between DTS 19/20 and app. E because he
      wasn't aware of the great variation in Tolkien's tengwar use.

      ---------------------------
      j. 'mach' wust
      http://machhezan.tripod.com
      ---------------------------
    • Gildor Inglorion
      life would be a bit easier if instead of DTS xxx we were using some abbreviations, like King s Letter and Namarie I think it would be easier both to write
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 4, 2005
        life would be a bit easier if instead of DTS xxx we
        were using some abbreviations, like 'King's Letter'
        and 'Namarie'

        I think it would be easier both to write and read :)

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