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Re: Additions and/or alterations to Tengwar Annatar

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  • Måns Björkman
    Hi! Just two suggestions to Tengwar Annatar that I have not seen anyone make yet. 1) I believe the Elvish question mark (code point 192) differs slightly from
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 8, 2004
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      Hi! Just two suggestions to Tengwar Annatar that I have not seen
      anyone make yet.

      1) I believe the Elvish question mark (code point 192) differs
      slightly from the one in DTS 20. As I see it, the lower bow is more or
      less a semi-circle, its lower end turning left and meeting the stem on
      a straight angle (cf. my interpretation in Tengwar Parmaite).

      2) The "a" sign on code point 188 is realised as a shortened telco
      with a connecting bar. This, I assume, is based on DTS 17, as in Dan
      Smith's fonts. But in DTS 18 and 23, a character closely similar both
      in shape and value seems to be based on a lúva covered by a connecting
      bar instead. I have assumed that this is the ordinary form of the
      letter, and used it in Tengwar Parmaite.

      Regards,

      Måns
    • Johan Winge
      On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 20:10:07 +0100, Melroch Aestan ... This could be done. As it is, the alternate font will contain doubled u- and
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 10, 2004
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        On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 20:10:07 +0100, Melroch 'Aestan <melroch@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > One very useful addition would be ready-made doubled
        > acute accent and grave accent tehtar (i.e. // and \\)
        > The // doesn't look good at all when one tries to fake
        > it in Annatar cursive (which after all includes the
        > // below, which I daresay very few people ever use,
        > while // and \\ above are commonly used for ø and œ
        > vowels.

        This could be done. As it is, the alternate font will contain doubled u-
        and o-curls, which in the italic style will look like those on the ring,
        of course. I will probably place these on the same places as the u- and
        o-curls of the standard font. In the same way, I could include doubled //
        and \\ in the alternate font at the same codepoints in which I in the
        standard font have / and \.

        I have thought the same as you about the // below, and perhaps I will
        replace it with \ above. (Something has to go if I want \ in the standard
        font.) The // below could still be accessible, namely in the alternate
        font in the codepoints of / below in the standard font. This way many
        doubled tehtar are moved to the alternate font, and in logical places.

        On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 01:01:15 -0000, Gregson Vaux <gvaux@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > My only comment about Annatar is that I would like longer stems for
        > the italic version (I guess that a stem is called a telco). I read
        > that this font used to have longer stems but for some reason they were
        > shortened but it would be nice if there were an alternate font with
        > longer stems.

        The upright style has gotten its telcor shortened, while the telcor in the
        italic style always have had the length they have now. You are not the
        first to ask for longer telcor in the italic style, however, so I will
        probably lengthen them somewhat, especially the ascending ones.

        On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:06:43 -0000, Måns Björkman <mansb@...> wrote:

        > Hi! Just two suggestions to Tengwar Annatar that I have not seen
        > anyone make yet.

        Hello! :-)

        > 1) I believe the Elvish question mark (code point 192) differs
        > slightly from the one in DTS 20. As I see it, the lower bow is more or
        > less a semi-circle, its lower end turning left and meeting the stem on
        > a straight angle (cf. my interpretation in Tengwar Parmaite).

        A pity that we only have one single instance of this tengwa! And not the
        best one either - it's fairly rough in the contours. (I must confess I
        dreamt this night about finding a new specimina with the interrogation
        mark in it. It's true!) It may be as you describe, since the inside of the
        bottom luuva looks fairly circular. At the same time, the outer contour of
        the lower luuva doesn't really connect vertically to the stem. Either of
        these could be explained by the viscosity of the ink and the porosity of
        the paper, so it is difficult to judge. In any case, my luuvar is too big,
        and it may be uncalled for to connect so smoothly to the telco as I have
        done. I will experiment with different designs.

        Also, my exclamation mark should be slightly shorter and moved upwards.

        > 2) The "a" sign on code point 188 is realised as a shortened telco
        > with a connecting bar. This, I assume, is based on DTS 17, as in Dan
        > Smith's fonts. But in DTS 18 and 23, a character closely similar both
        > in shape and value seems to be based on a lúva covered by a connecting
        > bar instead.

        I don't know about that. True, there are a few instances where this tengwa
        looks quite much like a luuva + bar, perhaps most prominently so at line
        18, DTS 18, but for the most part, this is not as obvious, I think. In
        fact, in the majority of the cases, it looks very much like it is drawn in
        the exact same manner as, say, the short carrier. The bow at the bottom
        end is slightly smaller and more narrow than the luuvar in the text, and
        is in some instances very small indeed, like in line 11. Instead, I would
        say it looks identical to the decorated bottom end of the short carrier.
        Also, in most cases, the supposed luuva connects to the bar almost
        vertically, insted of turning to the right at its top, as would be
        exspected from a luuva. In a few cases it is obvious that it is, at least,
        drawn like a short carrier + bar, eg. in the beginning of line 27.

        DTS 23 is more difficult to analyze, due to the sloppy writing, but in
        this text too the short carrier exhibits a turning to the right at its
        lower end. Also consider the appearance of the tengwa in question at the
        beginning of line 11.

        I will try to change the bar though, so that it truly connects to the
        following tengwa.

        Regards,
        Johan Winge
      • Måns Björkman
        ... connecting ... tengwa ... line ... drawn in ... bottom ... and ... would ... carrier. ... least, ... the ... I believe you are right! I was especially
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 10, 2004
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          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Johan Winge" <johan.winge@t...> wrote:

          > On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:06:43 -0000, Måns Björkman <mansb@h...> wrote:
          >
          > > [...]
          >
          > > 2) The "a" sign on code point 188 is realised as a shortened telco
          > > with a connecting bar. This, I assume, is based on DTS 17, as in Dan
          > > Smith's fonts. But in DTS 18 and 23, a character closely similar both
          > > in shape and value seems to be based on a lúva covered by a
          connecting
          > > bar instead.
          >
          > I don't know about that. True, there are a few instances where this
          tengwa
          > looks quite much like a luuva + bar, perhaps most prominently so at
          line
          > 18, DTS 18, but for the most part, this is not as obvious, I think. In
          > fact, in the majority of the cases, it looks very much like it is
          drawn in
          > the exact same manner as, say, the short carrier. The bow at the
          bottom
          > end is slightly smaller and more narrow than the luuvar in the text,
          and
          > is in some instances very small indeed, like in line 11. Instead, I
          would
          > say it looks identical to the decorated bottom end of the short
          carrier.
          > Also, in most cases, the supposed luuva connects to the bar almost
          > vertically, insted of turning to the right at its top, as would be
          > exspected from a luuva. In a few cases it is obvious that it is, at
          least,
          > drawn like a short carrier + bar, eg. in the beginning of line 27.
          >
          > DTS 23 is more difficult to analyze, due to the sloppy writing, but in
          > this text too the short carrier exhibits a turning to the right at its
          > lower end. Also consider the appearance of the tengwa in question at
          the
          > beginning of line 11.

          I believe you are right! I was especially convinced by your last
          example, where the bar clearly connects to the telco at its upper
          right (but not covering it, as I have assumed studying other samples).
          It turns out DTS 17 is fairly typical in this case after all.

          Yours,

          Måns
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