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Re: [elfscript] Additions and/or alterations to Tengwar Annatar

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  • Melroch 'Aestan
    One very useful addition would be ready-made doubled acute accent and grave accent tehtar (i.e. // and ) The // doesn t look good at all when one tries to
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 4, 2004
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      One very useful addition would be ready-made doubled
      acute accent and grave accent tehtar (i.e. // and \\)
      The // doesn't look good at all when one tries to fake
      it in Annatar cursive (which after all includes the
      // below, which I daresay very few people ever use,
      while // and \\ above are commonly used for ø and œ
      vowels.

      --

      /BP 8^)>
      --
      Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
      A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
      __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
      \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
      / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
      / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /'Aestan ~\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
      /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
      Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
      ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
      || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
      "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
    • Måns Björkman
      Hi! Just two suggestions to Tengwar Annatar that I have not seen anyone make yet. 1) I believe the Elvish question mark (code point 192) differs slightly from
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 8, 2004
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        Hi! Just two suggestions to Tengwar Annatar that I have not seen
        anyone make yet.

        1) I believe the Elvish question mark (code point 192) differs
        slightly from the one in DTS 20. As I see it, the lower bow is more or
        less a semi-circle, its lower end turning left and meeting the stem on
        a straight angle (cf. my interpretation in Tengwar Parmaite).

        2) The "a" sign on code point 188 is realised as a shortened telco
        with a connecting bar. This, I assume, is based on DTS 17, as in Dan
        Smith's fonts. But in DTS 18 and 23, a character closely similar both
        in shape and value seems to be based on a lúva covered by a connecting
        bar instead. I have assumed that this is the ordinary form of the
        letter, and used it in Tengwar Parmaite.

        Regards,

        Måns
      • Johan Winge
        On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 20:10:07 +0100, Melroch Aestan ... This could be done. As it is, the alternate font will contain doubled u- and
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 10, 2004
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          On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 20:10:07 +0100, Melroch 'Aestan <melroch@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > One very useful addition would be ready-made doubled
          > acute accent and grave accent tehtar (i.e. // and \\)
          > The // doesn't look good at all when one tries to fake
          > it in Annatar cursive (which after all includes the
          > // below, which I daresay very few people ever use,
          > while // and \\ above are commonly used for ø and œ
          > vowels.

          This could be done. As it is, the alternate font will contain doubled u-
          and o-curls, which in the italic style will look like those on the ring,
          of course. I will probably place these on the same places as the u- and
          o-curls of the standard font. In the same way, I could include doubled //
          and \\ in the alternate font at the same codepoints in which I in the
          standard font have / and \.

          I have thought the same as you about the // below, and perhaps I will
          replace it with \ above. (Something has to go if I want \ in the standard
          font.) The // below could still be accessible, namely in the alternate
          font in the codepoints of / below in the standard font. This way many
          doubled tehtar are moved to the alternate font, and in logical places.

          On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 01:01:15 -0000, Gregson Vaux <gvaux@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > My only comment about Annatar is that I would like longer stems for
          > the italic version (I guess that a stem is called a telco). I read
          > that this font used to have longer stems but for some reason they were
          > shortened but it would be nice if there were an alternate font with
          > longer stems.

          The upright style has gotten its telcor shortened, while the telcor in the
          italic style always have had the length they have now. You are not the
          first to ask for longer telcor in the italic style, however, so I will
          probably lengthen them somewhat, especially the ascending ones.

          On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:06:43 -0000, Måns Björkman <mansb@...> wrote:

          > Hi! Just two suggestions to Tengwar Annatar that I have not seen
          > anyone make yet.

          Hello! :-)

          > 1) I believe the Elvish question mark (code point 192) differs
          > slightly from the one in DTS 20. As I see it, the lower bow is more or
          > less a semi-circle, its lower end turning left and meeting the stem on
          > a straight angle (cf. my interpretation in Tengwar Parmaite).

          A pity that we only have one single instance of this tengwa! And not the
          best one either - it's fairly rough in the contours. (I must confess I
          dreamt this night about finding a new specimina with the interrogation
          mark in it. It's true!) It may be as you describe, since the inside of the
          bottom luuva looks fairly circular. At the same time, the outer contour of
          the lower luuva doesn't really connect vertically to the stem. Either of
          these could be explained by the viscosity of the ink and the porosity of
          the paper, so it is difficult to judge. In any case, my luuvar is too big,
          and it may be uncalled for to connect so smoothly to the telco as I have
          done. I will experiment with different designs.

          Also, my exclamation mark should be slightly shorter and moved upwards.

          > 2) The "a" sign on code point 188 is realised as a shortened telco
          > with a connecting bar. This, I assume, is based on DTS 17, as in Dan
          > Smith's fonts. But in DTS 18 and 23, a character closely similar both
          > in shape and value seems to be based on a lúva covered by a connecting
          > bar instead.

          I don't know about that. True, there are a few instances where this tengwa
          looks quite much like a luuva + bar, perhaps most prominently so at line
          18, DTS 18, but for the most part, this is not as obvious, I think. In
          fact, in the majority of the cases, it looks very much like it is drawn in
          the exact same manner as, say, the short carrier. The bow at the bottom
          end is slightly smaller and more narrow than the luuvar in the text, and
          is in some instances very small indeed, like in line 11. Instead, I would
          say it looks identical to the decorated bottom end of the short carrier.
          Also, in most cases, the supposed luuva connects to the bar almost
          vertically, insted of turning to the right at its top, as would be
          exspected from a luuva. In a few cases it is obvious that it is, at least,
          drawn like a short carrier + bar, eg. in the beginning of line 27.

          DTS 23 is more difficult to analyze, due to the sloppy writing, but in
          this text too the short carrier exhibits a turning to the right at its
          lower end. Also consider the appearance of the tengwa in question at the
          beginning of line 11.

          I will try to change the bar though, so that it truly connects to the
          following tengwa.

          Regards,
          Johan Winge
        • Måns Björkman
          ... connecting ... tengwa ... line ... drawn in ... bottom ... and ... would ... carrier. ... least, ... the ... I believe you are right! I was especially
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 10, 2004
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            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Johan Winge" <johan.winge@t...> wrote:

            > On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:06:43 -0000, Måns Björkman <mansb@h...> wrote:
            >
            > > [...]
            >
            > > 2) The "a" sign on code point 188 is realised as a shortened telco
            > > with a connecting bar. This, I assume, is based on DTS 17, as in Dan
            > > Smith's fonts. But in DTS 18 and 23, a character closely similar both
            > > in shape and value seems to be based on a lúva covered by a
            connecting
            > > bar instead.
            >
            > I don't know about that. True, there are a few instances where this
            tengwa
            > looks quite much like a luuva + bar, perhaps most prominently so at
            line
            > 18, DTS 18, but for the most part, this is not as obvious, I think. In
            > fact, in the majority of the cases, it looks very much like it is
            drawn in
            > the exact same manner as, say, the short carrier. The bow at the
            bottom
            > end is slightly smaller and more narrow than the luuvar in the text,
            and
            > is in some instances very small indeed, like in line 11. Instead, I
            would
            > say it looks identical to the decorated bottom end of the short
            carrier.
            > Also, in most cases, the supposed luuva connects to the bar almost
            > vertically, insted of turning to the right at its top, as would be
            > exspected from a luuva. In a few cases it is obvious that it is, at
            least,
            > drawn like a short carrier + bar, eg. in the beginning of line 27.
            >
            > DTS 23 is more difficult to analyze, due to the sloppy writing, but in
            > this text too the short carrier exhibits a turning to the right at its
            > lower end. Also consider the appearance of the tengwa in question at
            the
            > beginning of line 11.

            I believe you are right! I was especially convinced by your last
            example, where the bar clearly connects to the telco at its upper
            right (but not covering it, as I have assumed studying other samples).
            It turns out DTS 17 is fairly typical in this case after all.

            Yours,

            Måns
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