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Additions and/or alterations to Tengwar Annatar

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  • Doug Pearson
    ... I hesitate to ask for this, as it underscores my inherent laziness. In many modes, the English letter x is expressed with quesse plus Dan Smith s
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 29, 2004
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      Johan Winge posted regarding his Tengwar Annatar:

      > Is there anything more I should add? :-)

      I hesitate to ask for this, as it underscores my
      inherent laziness.

      In many modes, the English letter 'x' is expressed
      with quesse plus Dan Smith's "under-tail" [alt 0146].
      It would be nice for us lazy-bones to have this encoded
      as a single character. Is this even a possibility?

      Also, a question. According to the Dan Smith's pdf
      document showing his keymaps, the QWERTY keystroke '
      (which is just to the left of the <Enter> key) is
      supposed to produce a medium-width underbar. Also,
      the upper-case of the same key, ", is supposed to
      produce a wider underbar.

      However, in all of Dan Smith's fonts and all of the
      others that use his keymapping (including Annatar),
      these keystrokes produce two different widths of
      the "under-tail". The ' keystroke produces the
      same tehta which is identical with alt-0146.

      My problem with all of this is: How the heck am I
      supposed to get the medium-width underbar with these
      fonts? Could this be fixed somehow in Annatar?

      -- Doug Pearson
      (Tobold Hornblower)
    • j_mach_wust
      ... Why [ks] and not e.g. [ts] (which I use far more often than [ks]) or [ps] as well? ... I guess this is not a problem of the tengwar fonts, but of your word
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 30, 2004
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        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Pearson" <pearsond@o...> wrote:
        > Johan Winge posted regarding his Tengwar Annatar:
        >
        > > Is there anything more I should add? :-)
        >
        > I hesitate to ask for this, as it underscores my
        > inherent laziness.
        >
        > In many modes, the English letter 'x' is expressed
        > with quesse plus Dan Smith's "under-tail" [alt 0146].
        > It would be nice for us lazy-bones to have this encoded
        > as a single character.

        Why [ks] and not e.g. [ts] (which I use far more often than [ks]) or
        [ps] as well?

        > Also, a question. According to the Dan Smith's pdf
        > document showing his keymaps, the QWERTY keystroke '
        > (which is just to the left of the <Enter> key) is
        > supposed to produce a medium-width underbar. Also,
        > the upper-case of the same key, ", is supposed to
        > produce a wider underbar.
        >
        > However, in all of Dan Smith's fonts and all of the
        > others that use his keymapping (including Annatar),
        > these keystrokes produce two different widths of
        > the "under-tail". The ' keystroke produces the
        > same tehta which is identical with alt-0146.
        >
        > My problem with all of this is: How the heck am I
        > supposed to get the medium-width underbar with these
        > fonts? Could this be fixed somehow in Annatar?

        I guess this is not a problem of the tengwar fonts, but of your word
        processor. Word processors may replace by default the signs _', "_ by
        _', "_. In Microsoft Word, this option can be unchecked in a menu
        called _autocorrection_ (most probably - I only have the Mac version
        in German).

        ---------------------------
        j. 'mach' wust
        http://machhezan.tripod.com
        ---------------------------
      • j_mach_wust
        ... And yahoogroups appearently does the reverse... Again: Your word processor replaces the symmetrical signs APOSTROPHE ( ) and QUOTATION MARK ( ) by the
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 30, 2004
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          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <machhezan@g...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Pearson" <pearsond@o...> wrote:
          >
          > > Also, a question. According to the Dan Smith's pdf
          > > document showing his keymaps, the QWERTY keystroke '
          > > (which is just to the left of the <Enter> key) is
          > > supposed to produce a medium-width underbar. Also,
          > > the upper-case of the same key, ", is supposed to
          > > produce a wider underbar.
          > >
          > > However, in all of Dan Smith's fonts and all of the
          > > others that use his keymapping (including Annatar),
          > > these keystrokes produce two different widths of
          > > the "under-tail". The ' keystroke produces the
          > > same tehta which is identical with alt-0146.
          > >
          > > My problem with all of this is: How the heck am I
          > > supposed to get the medium-width underbar with these
          > > fonts? Could this be fixed somehow in Annatar?
          >
          > I guess this is not a problem of the tengwar fonts, but of your word
          > processor. Word processors may replace by default the signs _', "_
          > by _', "_. In Microsoft Word, this option can be unchecked in a menu
          > called _autocorrection_ (most probably - I only have the Mac version
          > in German).

          And yahoogroups appearently does the reverse... Again: Your word
          processor replaces the symmetrical signs APOSTROPHE (') and QUOTATION
          MARK (") by the assymetrical signs RIGHT/LEFT SINGLE/DOUBLE QUOTATION
          MARK.

          ---------------------------
          j. 'mach' wust
          http://machhezan.tripod.com
          ---------------------------
        • Melroch 'Aestan
          One very useful addition would be ready-made doubled acute accent and grave accent tehtar (i.e. // and ) The // doesn t look good at all when one tries to
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 4, 2004
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            One very useful addition would be ready-made doubled
            acute accent and grave accent tehtar (i.e. // and \\)
            The // doesn't look good at all when one tries to fake
            it in Annatar cursive (which after all includes the
            // below, which I daresay very few people ever use,
            while // and \\ above are commonly used for ø and œ
            vowels.

            --

            /BP 8^)>
            --
            Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
            A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
            __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
            \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
            / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
            / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /'Aestan ~\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
            /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
            Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
            ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
            || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
            "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
          • Måns Björkman
            Hi! Just two suggestions to Tengwar Annatar that I have not seen anyone make yet. 1) I believe the Elvish question mark (code point 192) differs slightly from
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 8, 2004
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              Hi! Just two suggestions to Tengwar Annatar that I have not seen
              anyone make yet.

              1) I believe the Elvish question mark (code point 192) differs
              slightly from the one in DTS 20. As I see it, the lower bow is more or
              less a semi-circle, its lower end turning left and meeting the stem on
              a straight angle (cf. my interpretation in Tengwar Parmaite).

              2) The "a" sign on code point 188 is realised as a shortened telco
              with a connecting bar. This, I assume, is based on DTS 17, as in Dan
              Smith's fonts. But in DTS 18 and 23, a character closely similar both
              in shape and value seems to be based on a lúva covered by a connecting
              bar instead. I have assumed that this is the ordinary form of the
              letter, and used it in Tengwar Parmaite.

              Regards,

              Måns
            • Johan Winge
              On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 20:10:07 +0100, Melroch Aestan ... This could be done. As it is, the alternate font will contain doubled u- and
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 10, 2004
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                On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 20:10:07 +0100, Melroch 'Aestan <melroch@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > One very useful addition would be ready-made doubled
                > acute accent and grave accent tehtar (i.e. // and \\)
                > The // doesn't look good at all when one tries to fake
                > it in Annatar cursive (which after all includes the
                > // below, which I daresay very few people ever use,
                > while // and \\ above are commonly used for ø and œ
                > vowels.

                This could be done. As it is, the alternate font will contain doubled u-
                and o-curls, which in the italic style will look like those on the ring,
                of course. I will probably place these on the same places as the u- and
                o-curls of the standard font. In the same way, I could include doubled //
                and \\ in the alternate font at the same codepoints in which I in the
                standard font have / and \.

                I have thought the same as you about the // below, and perhaps I will
                replace it with \ above. (Something has to go if I want \ in the standard
                font.) The // below could still be accessible, namely in the alternate
                font in the codepoints of / below in the standard font. This way many
                doubled tehtar are moved to the alternate font, and in logical places.

                On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 01:01:15 -0000, Gregson Vaux <gvaux@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > My only comment about Annatar is that I would like longer stems for
                > the italic version (I guess that a stem is called a telco). I read
                > that this font used to have longer stems but for some reason they were
                > shortened but it would be nice if there were an alternate font with
                > longer stems.

                The upright style has gotten its telcor shortened, while the telcor in the
                italic style always have had the length they have now. You are not the
                first to ask for longer telcor in the italic style, however, so I will
                probably lengthen them somewhat, especially the ascending ones.

                On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:06:43 -0000, Måns Björkman <mansb@...> wrote:

                > Hi! Just two suggestions to Tengwar Annatar that I have not seen
                > anyone make yet.

                Hello! :-)

                > 1) I believe the Elvish question mark (code point 192) differs
                > slightly from the one in DTS 20. As I see it, the lower bow is more or
                > less a semi-circle, its lower end turning left and meeting the stem on
                > a straight angle (cf. my interpretation in Tengwar Parmaite).

                A pity that we only have one single instance of this tengwa! And not the
                best one either - it's fairly rough in the contours. (I must confess I
                dreamt this night about finding a new specimina with the interrogation
                mark in it. It's true!) It may be as you describe, since the inside of the
                bottom luuva looks fairly circular. At the same time, the outer contour of
                the lower luuva doesn't really connect vertically to the stem. Either of
                these could be explained by the viscosity of the ink and the porosity of
                the paper, so it is difficult to judge. In any case, my luuvar is too big,
                and it may be uncalled for to connect so smoothly to the telco as I have
                done. I will experiment with different designs.

                Also, my exclamation mark should be slightly shorter and moved upwards.

                > 2) The "a" sign on code point 188 is realised as a shortened telco
                > with a connecting bar. This, I assume, is based on DTS 17, as in Dan
                > Smith's fonts. But in DTS 18 and 23, a character closely similar both
                > in shape and value seems to be based on a lúva covered by a connecting
                > bar instead.

                I don't know about that. True, there are a few instances where this tengwa
                looks quite much like a luuva + bar, perhaps most prominently so at line
                18, DTS 18, but for the most part, this is not as obvious, I think. In
                fact, in the majority of the cases, it looks very much like it is drawn in
                the exact same manner as, say, the short carrier. The bow at the bottom
                end is slightly smaller and more narrow than the luuvar in the text, and
                is in some instances very small indeed, like in line 11. Instead, I would
                say it looks identical to the decorated bottom end of the short carrier.
                Also, in most cases, the supposed luuva connects to the bar almost
                vertically, insted of turning to the right at its top, as would be
                exspected from a luuva. In a few cases it is obvious that it is, at least,
                drawn like a short carrier + bar, eg. in the beginning of line 27.

                DTS 23 is more difficult to analyze, due to the sloppy writing, but in
                this text too the short carrier exhibits a turning to the right at its
                lower end. Also consider the appearance of the tengwa in question at the
                beginning of line 11.

                I will try to change the bar though, so that it truly connects to the
                following tengwa.

                Regards,
                Johan Winge
              • Måns Björkman
                ... connecting ... tengwa ... line ... drawn in ... bottom ... and ... would ... carrier. ... least, ... the ... I believe you are right! I was especially
                Message 7 of 7 , Dec 10, 2004
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                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Johan Winge" <johan.winge@t...> wrote:

                  > On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:06:43 -0000, Måns Björkman <mansb@h...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > [...]
                  >
                  > > 2) The "a" sign on code point 188 is realised as a shortened telco
                  > > with a connecting bar. This, I assume, is based on DTS 17, as in Dan
                  > > Smith's fonts. But in DTS 18 and 23, a character closely similar both
                  > > in shape and value seems to be based on a lúva covered by a
                  connecting
                  > > bar instead.
                  >
                  > I don't know about that. True, there are a few instances where this
                  tengwa
                  > looks quite much like a luuva + bar, perhaps most prominently so at
                  line
                  > 18, DTS 18, but for the most part, this is not as obvious, I think. In
                  > fact, in the majority of the cases, it looks very much like it is
                  drawn in
                  > the exact same manner as, say, the short carrier. The bow at the
                  bottom
                  > end is slightly smaller and more narrow than the luuvar in the text,
                  and
                  > is in some instances very small indeed, like in line 11. Instead, I
                  would
                  > say it looks identical to the decorated bottom end of the short
                  carrier.
                  > Also, in most cases, the supposed luuva connects to the bar almost
                  > vertically, insted of turning to the right at its top, as would be
                  > exspected from a luuva. In a few cases it is obvious that it is, at
                  least,
                  > drawn like a short carrier + bar, eg. in the beginning of line 27.
                  >
                  > DTS 23 is more difficult to analyze, due to the sloppy writing, but in
                  > this text too the short carrier exhibits a turning to the right at its
                  > lower end. Also consider the appearance of the tengwa in question at
                  the
                  > beginning of line 11.

                  I believe you are right! I was especially convinced by your last
                  example, where the bar clearly connects to the telco at its upper
                  right (but not covering it, as I have assumed studying other samples).
                  It turns out DTS 17 is fairly typical in this case after all.

                  Yours,

                  Måns
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