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Another correction (was: Corrected version of the Chinese tehtar mode)

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  • j_mach_wust
    Here s one more clarification of my poor English (thanks again to Dave Hísilómë ) in the section on tones. CONSONANTS t: tinco d: ando s: thúle c:
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 19, 2004
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      Here's one more clarification of my poor English (thanks again to Dave
      'Hísilómë') in the section on tones.

      CONSONANTS

      t: tinco
      d: ando
      s: thúle
      c: extended tinco
      z: extended ando
      n: númen

      p: parma
      b: umbar
      f: formen
      m: malta
      w: vala (1)

      sh: aha
      ch: extended calma
      zh: extended anga
      r: anna

      k: quesse
      g: ungwe
      x: hwesta
      q: extended quesse
      j: extended ungwe
      ng: nwalme
      y: vilya (2)

      l: lambe
      h: hyarmen


      NOTES TO THE CONSONANTS

      (1): vala is only used when the <w> is the first sound of a syllable.
      If it follows a consonant, then the <w> is represented by a modified
      left-curl above that consonant. If it follows a vowel, then it's
      written with an úre that bears that preceding vowel.

      (2): vilya is only used when the <y> is the first sound of a syllable.
      If it follows a consonant, then the <y> is represented by two dots
      below that consonant. If it follows a vowel, then it's written with a
      yanta that bears that preceding vowel.


      SIMPLE VOWELS

      The vowels are placed on the preceding consonant sign. If there's no
      preceding consonant sign, then they're placed on a short carrier. For
      exceptions see the notes to the consonants.

      a: three dots
      e: acute
      i: single dot
      o: right curl
      u: left curl


      COMPLEX VOWELS AND Ü

      All complex vowels and ü are written by combinations of the following
      kind:

      y/w/yw + vowel + y/w

      Like this:

      ua = w + a
      uo = w + o
      uai = w + a + y (3)
      ao = a + w
      iu = i + w
      ou = o + w
      iao = y + a + w (3)

      ia = y + a
      ie = y + e
      io = y + o
      iao = y + a + w (3)
      ai = a + y
      ei = e + y
      ui = u + y
      uai = w + a + y

      ü = y + u
      üe = yw + e


      NOTE TO THE TRIPHTHONGS

      (3) In triphthongs, the vowel tehta (second element) is placed above
      the sign that represents the third element (see also notes to the
      consonants).

      Examples:
      WAI: vala, yanta with three dots above
      KUAI: quesse with modified left curl above, yanta with three dots above


      TONES

      I suggest to use the same tone signs as in the pinyin romanizations
      (like Dave 'Hísilómë' does). However, I suggest to place them below
      the same sign where the vowel tehta is.

      I'd also suggest not to place them immediately below the lúvar, but
      lower, so that the double dots below (see note to the consonants) can
      be placed immediately below the lúvar.

      ---------------------------
      j. 'mach' wust
      http://machhezan.tripod.com
      ---------------------------
    • hisilome
      ... [Well, that was really just a misunderstanding then :). I also saw you removed from the complex vowels list. I agree now that when writing Mandarin
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 20, 2004
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        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <machhezan@g...> wrote:
        >
        > Here's one more clarification in the section on tones.
        >
        [Well, that was really just a misunderstanding then :).

        I also saw you removed <üa> from the complex vowels list. I agree now
        that when writing Mandarin with this Tengwar orthographic (!) mode,
        one should only spell <ü> (i.e. y + u/w) when Pinyin also uses <ü>, in
        all other cases (incl. <ju, juan, jue, jun, qu, quan, que, qun, xu,
        xuan, xue, xun) where Pinyin has <u> (though pronounced <ü>), one
        should spell <u> in Tengwar writing as well.

        This would also include <yu, yuan, yue, yun> (where <u> is also
        pronounced <ü>), and which would thus be spelt with "vala with U-tehta
        on top/vala with modified left-curl and A-tehta on top + nuumen/vala
        with modified left-curl and E-tehta on top/vala with U-tehta on top +
        nuumen", respectively.
        I assume it is right to use the U-tehta in <yu> and <yun> instead of
        the modified left-curl, since the modified left-curl [i.e. spelling
        <u> as <w>] is only needed where <u> is the first part in complex
        vowel combinations.

        The same goes for all other syllables: <u> "alone" = U-tehta; <u> as
        first sound in complex vowels = modified u-curl; and <u> as final
        sound in complex vowels = uure).

        And to round it off, in accordance with the above principles, the
        following would be spelt:

        lu = lambe with U-tehta on top
        lü = lambe with two under-dots and U-tehta on top
        lüe = lambe with two under-dots and modified left-curl and E-tehta on top

        nu = nuumen with U-tehta on top
        nü = nuumen with two under-dots and U-tehta on top
        nüe = nuumen with two under-dots and modified left-curl and E-tehta on
        top.

        The only case where <o> as the final part of complex vowels would
        _not_ be spelled <w> (modified left-curl) is in the combination <io>,
        so that <xiong> would be spelled "hwesta with two underdots and
        O-tehta on top + nwalme". Analogous for <qiong> and <jiong>.

        I gather these are the spellings your mode suggests for these sounds,
        and the ones which I will use. Please let me know if I've made any
        mistakes in my above spellings (just checking whether I've understood
        the principles correctly).

        I think we've covered pretty much everything now. (Well, should I come
        across any problems later, I won't hesitate to bring it up :). Not
        very likely though. The Chinese sound system is not quite as complex
        as the English one...)]

        Hísilómë
      • j_mach_wust
        ... All of your samples match perfectly with the suggestion I ve outlined! ... I m sure you wouldn t, and this makes me feel safer! ... j. mach wust
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 21, 2004
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          Dave 'Hísilómë' wrote:

          > Please let me know if I've made any
          > mistakes in my above spellings (just checking whether I've understood
          > the principles correctly).

          All of your samples match perfectly with the suggestion I've outlined!

          > I think we've covered pretty much everything now. (Well, should I come
          > across any problems later, I won't hesitate to bring it up :).

          I'm sure you wouldn't, and this makes me feel safer!

          ---------------------------
          j. 'mach' wust
          http://machhezan.tripod.com
          ---------------------------
        • hisilome
          ... ... syllable. ... syllable. ... a ... ... following ... [I have long wondered about one little problem . When using Tengwar to write Chinese,
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 17, 2006
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            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <machhezan@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >This is a corrected version of the Chinese mode I proposed
            >yesterday.


            <...>


            >
            > NOTES TO THE CONSONANTS
            >
            > (1): vala is only used when the <w> is the first sound of a
            syllable.
            > If it follows a consonant, then the <w> is represented by a modified
            > left-curl above that consonant. If it follows a vowel, then it's
            > written with an úre that bears that preceding vowel.
            >
            > (2): vilya is only used when the <y> is the first sound of a
            syllable.
            > If it follows a consonant, then the <y> is represented by two dots
            > below that consonant. If it follows a vowel, then it's written with
            a
            > yanta that bears that preceding vowel.


            <...>


            >
            > COMPLEX VOWELS AND Ü
            >
            > All complex vowels and ü are written by combinations of the
            following
            > kind:
            >
            > y/w/yw + vowel + y/w
            >
            > Like this:
            >
            > ua = w + a
            > uo = w + o
            > uai = w + a + y (2)
            > ao = a + w
            > iu = i + w
            > ou = o + w
            > iao = y + a + w (2)
            >
            > ia = y + a
            > ie = y + e
            > io = y + o
            > iao = y + a + w (2)
            > ai = a + y
            > ei = e + y
            > ui = u + y
            > uai = w + a + y
            >
            > ü = y + u
            > üe = yw + e


            [I have long wondered about one little "problem". When using Tengwar
            to write Chinese, I always spell complex vowels in accordance with
            your suggestions above, presuming that when you use "u" and "i" you
            imply that one should use the actual U/I tehta, but when you use "w"
            and "y", the modified left-curl or uure/two underdots or yanta are
            employed.

            This works perfectly fine in most cases, but I believe there are two
            ambiguous scenarios that involve the combinations "iu" and "ui",
            featuring _both_ "i/y" and "u/w".

            If I read your suggestions correctly, for "iu" you suggest "i + u",
            i.e. "I-tehta on top of uure". Thus, a word like "diu" would be
            spelt "ando + I-tehta on top of uure". Question: Wouldn't it also
            comply with your NOTES TO THE CONSONANTS ("If <y> follows a
            consonant...") to spell "ando with two under-dots and U-tehta on top"?

            Similarly, I gather you'd spell a word like "tui" as "tinco + U-tehta
            on top of yanta". In accordance with your rules ("If <w> follows a
            consonant..."), couldn't one also spell "tinco with modified left-
            curl and I-tehta on top" (however one would arrange them, from left
            to right or on top of each other)?

            In a nutshell, how did you decide in these two special cases that the
            first part of "iu" and "ui" should be represented with a tehta and
            the second element with a tengwa, instead of using combinations
            employing two diacritic signs? I mean, here two choices seem possible
            (unlike in cases like "ai", "ia", "ei", "ua", "ao [=au =aw]" etc,
            since for "a" or "e" one has no choice but to use the "normal" A-/E-
            tehta, and thus naturally resorts to the more "special" spellings
            for "i/y" or "u/o/w", no matter if they make up the first or second
            element).

            Hm, hope this question isn't too obtuse...or confusing...:)]

            Hisilome
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