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Chinese tehtar mode

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  • j_mach_wust
    CONSONANTS t: tinco d: ando s: thúle c: extended tinco z: extended ando n: númen p: parma b: umbar f: formen m: malta w: vala (1) sh: aha ch: extended calma
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 17, 2004
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      CONSONANTS

      t: tinco
      d: ando
      s: thúle
      c: extended tinco
      z: extended ando
      n: númen

      p: parma
      b: umbar
      f: formen
      m: malta
      w: vala (1)

      sh: aha
      ch: extended calma
      zh: extended anga
      r: anna

      k: quesse
      g: ungwe
      x: hwesta
      q: extended quesse
      j: extended ungwe
      y: vilya (2)

      l: lambe
      h: hyarmen


      NOTES TO THE CONSONANTS

      (1): vala is only used when the <w> is the first sound of a syllable.
      If it follows a consonant, then the <w> is represented by a left-curl
      above that consonant. If it follows a vowel, then it's written with an
      úre that bears that preceding vowel.

      (2): vilya is only used when the <y> is the first sound of a syllable.
      If it follows a consonant, then the <y> is represented by two dots
      below that consonant. If it follows a vowel, then it's written with a
      yanta that bears that preceding vowel.


      SIMPLE VOWELS

      The vowels are placed on the preceding consonant sign. If there's no
      preceding consonant sign, then they're placed on a short carrier. For
      exceptions see the notes to the consonants.

      a: three dots
      e: acute
      i: single dot
      o: right curl
      u: left curl


      COMPLEX VOWELS AND Ü

      All complex vowels and ü are written by combinations of the following
      kind:

      y/w/yw + vowel + y/w

      Like this:

      ua = w + a
      uo = w + o
      uai = w + a + y
      ao = a + w
      iu = i + w (y + o + w?)
      ou = o + w
      iao = y + a + w

      ia = y + a
      ie = y + e
      io = y + o
      iao = y + a + w
      ai = a + y
      ei = e + y
      ui = u + y (w + e + y?)
      uai = w + a + y

      ü = y + u
      üe = yw + e
      üa = yw + a


      TONES

      I suggest to use the same tone signs as in the pinyin romanizations
      (like Dave 'Hísilómë' does). However, I suggest to place them below
      the same sign where the vowel tehta is.

      ---------------------------
      j. 'mach' wust
      http://machhezan.tripod.com
      ---------------------------
    • j_mach_wust
      I m sorry, I hit the wrong key and posted before I could complete the subject. I wanted it to be Chinese tengwar mode with Tolkienian vowel representation
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 17, 2004
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        I'm sorry, I hit the wrong key and posted before I could complete the
        subject. I wanted it to be "Chinese tengwar mode with Tolkienian vowel
        representation"
      • Benct Philip Jonsson
        ... Sure, but noone less than YR Chao claimed that many speakers are aware, or at least have a hunch about, the complementary distribution of velars and
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 17, 2004
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          hisilome wrote:

          > [I never denied this phonological development. What I do doubt is that
          > an awful lot of average native speakers are aware of it, and actually
          > consider these sounsds as "relatives", which is quite a different
          > matter. The original wording was "Mandarin speakers are said to feel
          > that _q, j_ are related to _k, g_, while _ch, zh_ are related to _c,
          > z_,(...)".
          >
          > What speakers of a language _feel_ may be quite different from what
          > they actually _know_ :) .

          Sure, but noone less than YR Chao claimed that many speakers are
          aware, or at least have a hunch about, the complementary distribution
          of velars and palatals. After all complementary distribution is
          discoverable by inspection! As for retroflexes and dentals they are
          known to be related by the fact that some dialects have dentals
          in place of retroflexes. That is allegedly why they selected the
          pinyin romanization as dental+h.

          --

          /BP 8^)
          --
          Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se

          Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
          (Tacitus)
        • hisilome
          ... [Right, that s why I pointed out that in many parts of China, even the Mandarin retroflexes are pronounced lazily, as dental/alveolars. If you don t roll
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 17, 2004
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            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Benct Philip Jonsson <melroch@m...>
            wrote:
            > hisilome wrote:
            >
            > > [I never denied this phonological development. What I do doubt is that
            > > an awful lot of average native speakers are aware of it, and actually
            > > consider these sounsds as "relatives", which is quite a different
            > > matter. The original wording was "Mandarin speakers are said to feel
            > > that _q, j_ are related to _k, g_, while _ch, zh_ are related to _c,
            > > z_,(...)".
            > >
            > > What speakers of a language _feel_ may be quite different from what
            > > they actually _know_ :) .
            >
            > Sure, but noone less than YR Chao claimed that many speakers are
            > aware, or at least have a hunch about, the complementary distribution
            > of velars and palatals. After all complementary distribution is
            > discoverable by inspection! As for retroflexes and dentals they are
            > known to be related by the fact that some dialects have dentals
            > in place of retroflexes. That is allegedly why they selected the
            > pinyin romanization as dental+h.
            >
            [Right, that's why I pointed out that in many parts of China, even the
            Mandarin retroflexes are pronounced lazily, as dental/alveolars. If
            you don't roll your tongue, <zh, ch, shi> come out quite "naturally"
            as <z, c, s>. As I also wrote, the dental/alveolar counterpart for
            retroflex <r> is not part of the Chinese sound system, so that's where
            this phenomenon stops.
            As for the implications of the complementary distribution of velars
            and alveolo-palatals for a Mandarin mode, I'm still not sure how (or
            if) this distribution should best be reflected in an orthographic mode
            :).]

            Hísilómë
          • hisilome
            Well, mellon, I bow my head to you :). This looks pretty good to me...haven t carefully studied all the details yet, but I think as far as consistency and
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 17, 2004
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              Well, mellon, I bow my head to you :). This looks pretty good to
              me...haven't carefully studied all the details yet, but I think as far
              as consistency and accurate reflection of basic Tengwar principles go,
              I'd say this is vastly superior to my attempt. The work of a true
              loremaster. Thanks!

              Just two questions:

              1. Am I right to assume that you would also use nwalme for "ng" (velar
              nasal), which I think better, since it is _one_ sound, or would you
              use nuumen + ungwe?

              2. How would you spell the following syllables? If I understand you
              correctly, they would have to look like this:

              zhua = extended anga with left-curl on top + A-tehta on carrier (There
              is a preceding consonant sign, but since that already carries the
              tehta for <u/w> after consonant, I guess you would have to handle it
              like this, with a carrier for <a>? Analogous for the example below.)


              tuo = tinco with left-curl on top + O-tehta on short carrier

              lie = lambe with two under-dots plus E-tehta on short carrier (Or
              would you spell lambe with two under-dots and the E-tehta on top? Here
              this would be an option, since the sign for <i/y> is below the
              tengwa. Same question for syllables in -ia, such as jia.)


              xue (xüe) = hwesta with two under-dots and a left-curl on top +
              E-tehta on a short carrier


              quan (qüan) = extended quesse with two under-dots and a left-curl on
              top + A-tehta on short carrier + nuumen

              (As I said in an earlier mail, and as you are obviously aware of, in
              syllables such as juan and quan, we are really dealing with jüan and
              qüan, the same for xuan, jue, xue, lue, nue, which is why in all such
              cases I would use your suggested spellings for <ü, üe, üa>. This
              opposed to the spelling of <u> as in huang, zhuang, lu, shu, tu, du, etc.

              Pinyin is strangely inconsistent when it come to <u> vs. <ü>: it
              usually only uses <ü> in two cases, the syllables <lü> and <lüe>. In
              <lü> it is necessary as a distinction to <lu>, which is pronounced
              with the <u> as in huang, zhuang etc., but there is no corresponding
              syllable <lue> for <lüe>, so it makes you wonder why they bothered to
              indicate the actual pronunciation as <ü> in this case, while they
              didn't do so in the other syllables quoted [juan, quan, xuan, jue,
              xue, nue]. Of course, none of these syllables can be pronounced with
              actual <u>, either.)


              dao (daw) = ando + A-tehta on top of uure (Could one, in analogy to
              your spelling of tuo, also write ando with A-tehta on top + O-tehta on
              short carrier? I guess you'd rather write dipthongs as one unit
              whereever possible, though--see below.)


              xiong = hwesta with two underdots + O-tehta on short carrier + nwalme
              (or nuumen + ungwe, but his is a minor thing)


              Now I do _not_ have any problems with any of these spellings, but do
              they not go against your principle of not ripping diphthongs apart
              (i.e. representing them as one unit of vowel-tehta plus
              "vowel-tengwa")? Of course it means that one does not have to bother
              about finding tengwar to represent <o, e, a> as the final part of
              complex vowels, since one can just use the normal tehta on a carrier.
              For final <i(y), u(w)>, one has yanta and uure where required.

              (With triphthongs there is no other choice, unless one would want to
              work with two tehta, one on top and one under, one tengwa, which is as
              far as I know not attested anywhere.)

              Hísilómë


              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <machhezan@g...> wrote:
              >
              > CONSONANTS
              >
              > t: tinco
              > d: ando
              > s: thúle
              > c: extended tinco
              > z: extended ando
              > n: númen
              >
              > p: parma
              > b: umbar
              > f: formen
              > m: malta
              > w: vala (1)
              >
              > sh: aha
              > ch: extended calma
              > zh: extended anga
              > r: anna
              >
              > k: quesse
              > g: ungwe
              > x: hwesta
              > q: extended quesse
              > j: extended ungwe
              > y: vilya (2)
              >
              > l: lambe
              > h: hyarmen
              >
              >
              > NOTES TO THE CONSONANTS
              >
              > (1): vala is only used when the <w> is the first sound of a syllable.
              > If it follows a consonant, then the <w> is represented by a left-curl
              > above that consonant. If it follows a vowel, then it's written with an
              > úre that bears that preceding vowel.
              >
              > (2): vilya is only used when the <y> is the first sound of a syllable.
              > If it follows a consonant, then the <y> is represented by two dots
              > below that consonant. If it follows a vowel, then it's written with a
              > yanta that bears that preceding vowel.
              >
              >
              > SIMPLE VOWELS
              >
              > The vowels are placed on the preceding consonant sign. If there's no
              > preceding consonant sign, then they're placed on a short carrier. For
              > exceptions see the notes to the consonants.
              >
              > a: three dots
              > e: acute
              > i: single dot
              > o: right curl
              > u: left curl
              >
              >
              > COMPLEX VOWELS AND Ü
              >
              > All complex vowels and ü are written by combinations of the following
              > kind:
              >
              > y/w/yw + vowel + y/w
              >
              > Like this:
              >
              > ua = w + a
              > uo = w + o
              > uai = w + a + y
              > ao = a + w
              > iu = i + w (y + o + w?)
              > ou = o + w
              > iao = y + a + w
              >
              > ia = y + a
              > ie = y + e
              > io = y + o
              > iao = y + a + w
              > ai = a + y
              > ei = e + y
              > ui = u + y (w + e + y?)
              > uai = w + a + y
              >
              > ü = y + u
              > üe = yw + e
              > üa = yw + a
              >
              >
              > TONES
              >
              > I suggest to use the same tone signs as in the pinyin romanizations
              > (like Dave 'Hísilómë' does). However, I suggest to place them below
              > the same sign where the vowel tehta is.
              >
              > ---------------------------
              > j. 'mach' wust
              > http://machhezan.tripod.com
              > ---------------------------
            • j_mach_wust
              ... Sure, nwalme, I forgot this one, thanks! ... No, wherever a tengwa carrying a modified left-curl should carry a vowel tehta as well, it does, e.g. in DTS
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 18, 2004
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                Dave 'Hísilómë' wrote:
                >
                > 1. Am I right to assume that you would also use nwalme for "ng"
                > (velar nasal), which I think better, since it is _one_ sound, or
                > would you use nuumen + ungwe?

                Sure, nwalme, I forgot this one, thanks!

                > 2. How would you spell the following syllables? If I understand you
                > correctly, they would have to look like this:
                >
                > zhua = extended anga with left-curl on top + A-tehta on carrier
                > (There is a preceding consonant sign, but since that already carries
                > the tehta for <u/w> after consonant, I guess you would have to
                > handle it like this, with a carrier for <a>? Analogous for the
                > example below.)

                No, wherever a tengwa carrying a modified left-curl should carry a
                vowel tehta as well, it does, e.g. in DTS 46 or in DTS 49. If I
                remember correctly, there are no contrary samples.

                I'd say this is because the modified left-curl is a consonant tehta,
                not a vowel tehta, and therefore rather analogous to the bar above
                (for prenasality) which also cooccurs with vowel tehtar. In DTS 46,
                there's actually a sample of a quesse with three tehtar above: a bar,
                a modified left-curl and a three dots tehta.

                The available computer fonts aren't very suited for a combination of
                left-curl and vowel tehta above, but that doesn't matter.

                I'm leaving away the other words you weren't sure about, since I
                assume it's now clear how I'd intend to spell them.

                > (As I said in an earlier mail, and as you are obviously aware of, in
                > syllables such as juan and quan, we are really dealing with jüan
                > and qüan, the same for xuan, jue, xue, lue, nue, which is why in all
                > such cases I would use your suggested spellings for <ü, üe, üa>.
                > This opposed to the spelling of <u> as in huang, zhuang, lu, shu,
                > tu, du, etc.

                You might do this, but I think it's not necessary, since there's no
                ambiguity, and since it's basically an orthographic mode.

                > Pinyin is strangely inconsistent when it come to <u> vs. <ü>: it
                > usually only uses <ü> in two cases, the syllables <lü> and <lüe>. In
                > <lü> it is necessary as a distinction to <lu>, which is pronounced
                > with the <u> as in huang, zhuang etc., but there is no corresponding
                > syllable <lue> for <lüe>, so it makes you wonder why they bothered
                > to indicate the actual pronunciation as <ü> in this case, while they
                > didn't do so in the other syllables quoted [juan, quan, xuan, jue,
                > xue, nue]. Of course, none of these syllables can be pronounced with
                > actual <u>, either.)

                On http://www.wfu.edu/~moran/Cathay_Cafe/IPA_NPA_4.htm there's also
                <nü>, <lüan>, <nüe>, and <lün>. Actually, the pinyin spellings aren't
                on that page; I've made them up with the help of
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin .

                I don't care much about inconsistencies of pinyin, but I could imagine
                that the reason why there's <lüe>, <nüe> and not *<lue>, *<nue> is
                that the replacement of <ü> by <u> is only made after the
                alveolopalatal consonants where the pronunciation of [y] is natural
                ([y] can be considered a palatal [u]), whereas in all other cases,
                this pronunciation is not natural and therefore indicated, no matter
                whether there's an opposition or not.

                > dao (daw) = ando + A-tehta on top of uure (Could one, in analogy to
                > your spelling of tuo, also write ando with A-tehta on top + O-tehta
                > on short carrier? I guess you'd rather write dipthongs as one unit
                > whereever possible, though--see below.)

                That's not my spelling of <tuo>, see above.

                > Now I do _not_ have any problems with any of these spellings, but do
                > they not go against your principle of not ripping diphthongs apart
                > (i.e. representing them as one unit of vowel-tehta plus
                > "vowel-tengwa")?

                No, in all cases, there's only one vowel tehta. All diphthongs are
                represented in one and the same sign. The short carrier is only used
                where a syllable begins with a vowel (unless the vowel tehta is placed
                on yanta or úre, of course).

                > (With triphthongs there is no other choice, unless one would want to
                > work with two tehta, one on top and one under, one tengwa, which is
                > as far as I know not attested anywhere.)

                Also the triphthongs require only one vowel tehta, though the
                consonant parts of the triphthong are written in two tengwar. I'd
                prefer to represent triphthongs in the following way:

                (consonant +) y/w + diphthong

                That means, I'd suggest to place the vowel tehta on yanta/úre. Like
                this, the tehtar are distributed more evenly.

                ---------------------------
                j. 'mach' wust
                http://machhezan.tripod.com
                ---------------------------
              • j_mach_wust
                This is a corrected version of the Chinese mode I proposed yesterday. Thanks to Dave Hísilómë for the corrections! CONSONANTS t: tinco d: ando s: thúle
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 18, 2004
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                  This is a corrected version of the Chinese mode I proposed yesterday.
                  Thanks to Dave 'Hísilómë' for the corrections!

                  CONSONANTS

                  t: tinco
                  d: ando
                  s: thúle
                  c: extended tinco
                  z: extended ando
                  n: númen

                  p: parma
                  b: umbar
                  f: formen
                  m: malta
                  w: vala (1)

                  sh: aha
                  ch: extended calma
                  zh: extended anga
                  r: anna

                  k: quesse
                  g: ungwe
                  x: hwesta
                  q: extended quesse
                  j: extended ungwe
                  ng: nwalme
                  y: vilya (2)

                  l: lambe
                  h: hyarmen


                  NOTES TO THE CONSONANTS

                  (1): vala is only used when the <w> is the first sound of a syllable.
                  If it follows a consonant, then the <w> is represented by a modified
                  left-curl above that consonant. If it follows a vowel, then it's
                  written with an úre that bears that preceding vowel.

                  (2): vilya is only used when the <y> is the first sound of a syllable.
                  If it follows a consonant, then the <y> is represented by two dots
                  below that consonant. If it follows a vowel, then it's written with a
                  yanta that bears that preceding vowel.


                  SIMPLE VOWELS

                  The vowels are placed on the preceding consonant sign. If there's no
                  preceding consonant sign, then they're placed on a short carrier. For
                  exceptions see the notes to the consonants.

                  a: three dots
                  e: acute
                  i: single dot
                  o: right curl
                  u: left curl


                  COMPLEX VOWELS AND Ü

                  All complex vowels and ü are written by combinations of the following
                  kind:

                  y/w/yw + vowel + y/w

                  Like this:

                  ua = w + a
                  uo = w + o
                  uai = w + a + y (2)
                  ao = a + w
                  iu = i + w
                  ou = o + w
                  iao = y + a + w (2)

                  ia = y + a
                  ie = y + e
                  io = y + o
                  iao = y + a + w (2)
                  ai = a + y
                  ei = e + y
                  ui = u + y
                  uai = w + a + y

                  ü = y + u
                  üe = yw + e


                  NOTE TO THE TRIPHTHONGS

                  (2) In triphthongs, the vowel tehta (second element) is placed above
                  the sign that represents the third element (see also notes to the
                  consonants).

                  Examples:
                  WAI: vala, yanta with three dots above
                  KUAI: quesse with modified left curl above, yanta with three dots above


                  TONES

                  I suggest to use the same tone signs as in the pinyin romanizations
                  (like Dave 'Hísilómë' does). However, I suggest to place them below
                  the same sign where the vowel tehta is.

                  I'd also suggest not to place them immediately below the lúvar, in
                  order to leave some space for a possible double dot below.

                  ---------------------------
                  j. 'mach' wust
                  http://machhezan.tripod.com
                  ---------------------------
                • j_mach_wust
                  Here s one more clarification of my poor English (thanks again to Dave Hísilómë ) in the section on tones. CONSONANTS t: tinco d: ando s: thúle c:
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 19, 2004
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                    Here's one more clarification of my poor English (thanks again to Dave
                    'Hísilómë') in the section on tones.

                    CONSONANTS

                    t: tinco
                    d: ando
                    s: thúle
                    c: extended tinco
                    z: extended ando
                    n: númen

                    p: parma
                    b: umbar
                    f: formen
                    m: malta
                    w: vala (1)

                    sh: aha
                    ch: extended calma
                    zh: extended anga
                    r: anna

                    k: quesse
                    g: ungwe
                    x: hwesta
                    q: extended quesse
                    j: extended ungwe
                    ng: nwalme
                    y: vilya (2)

                    l: lambe
                    h: hyarmen


                    NOTES TO THE CONSONANTS

                    (1): vala is only used when the <w> is the first sound of a syllable.
                    If it follows a consonant, then the <w> is represented by a modified
                    left-curl above that consonant. If it follows a vowel, then it's
                    written with an úre that bears that preceding vowel.

                    (2): vilya is only used when the <y> is the first sound of a syllable.
                    If it follows a consonant, then the <y> is represented by two dots
                    below that consonant. If it follows a vowel, then it's written with a
                    yanta that bears that preceding vowel.


                    SIMPLE VOWELS

                    The vowels are placed on the preceding consonant sign. If there's no
                    preceding consonant sign, then they're placed on a short carrier. For
                    exceptions see the notes to the consonants.

                    a: three dots
                    e: acute
                    i: single dot
                    o: right curl
                    u: left curl


                    COMPLEX VOWELS AND Ü

                    All complex vowels and ü are written by combinations of the following
                    kind:

                    y/w/yw + vowel + y/w

                    Like this:

                    ua = w + a
                    uo = w + o
                    uai = w + a + y (3)
                    ao = a + w
                    iu = i + w
                    ou = o + w
                    iao = y + a + w (3)

                    ia = y + a
                    ie = y + e
                    io = y + o
                    iao = y + a + w (3)
                    ai = a + y
                    ei = e + y
                    ui = u + y
                    uai = w + a + y

                    ü = y + u
                    üe = yw + e


                    NOTE TO THE TRIPHTHONGS

                    (3) In triphthongs, the vowel tehta (second element) is placed above
                    the sign that represents the third element (see also notes to the
                    consonants).

                    Examples:
                    WAI: vala, yanta with three dots above
                    KUAI: quesse with modified left curl above, yanta with three dots above


                    TONES

                    I suggest to use the same tone signs as in the pinyin romanizations
                    (like Dave 'Hísilómë' does). However, I suggest to place them below
                    the same sign where the vowel tehta is.

                    I'd also suggest not to place them immediately below the lúvar, but
                    lower, so that the double dots below (see note to the consonants) can
                    be placed immediately below the lúvar.

                    ---------------------------
                    j. 'mach' wust
                    http://machhezan.tripod.com
                    ---------------------------
                  • hisilome
                    ... [Well, that was really just a misunderstanding then :). I also saw you removed from the complex vowels list. I agree now that when writing Mandarin
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 20, 2004
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                      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <machhezan@g...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Here's one more clarification in the section on tones.
                      >
                      [Well, that was really just a misunderstanding then :).

                      I also saw you removed <üa> from the complex vowels list. I agree now
                      that when writing Mandarin with this Tengwar orthographic (!) mode,
                      one should only spell <ü> (i.e. y + u/w) when Pinyin also uses <ü>, in
                      all other cases (incl. <ju, juan, jue, jun, qu, quan, que, qun, xu,
                      xuan, xue, xun) where Pinyin has <u> (though pronounced <ü>), one
                      should spell <u> in Tengwar writing as well.

                      This would also include <yu, yuan, yue, yun> (where <u> is also
                      pronounced <ü>), and which would thus be spelt with "vala with U-tehta
                      on top/vala with modified left-curl and A-tehta on top + nuumen/vala
                      with modified left-curl and E-tehta on top/vala with U-tehta on top +
                      nuumen", respectively.
                      I assume it is right to use the U-tehta in <yu> and <yun> instead of
                      the modified left-curl, since the modified left-curl [i.e. spelling
                      <u> as <w>] is only needed where <u> is the first part in complex
                      vowel combinations.

                      The same goes for all other syllables: <u> "alone" = U-tehta; <u> as
                      first sound in complex vowels = modified u-curl; and <u> as final
                      sound in complex vowels = uure).

                      And to round it off, in accordance with the above principles, the
                      following would be spelt:

                      lu = lambe with U-tehta on top
                      lü = lambe with two under-dots and U-tehta on top
                      lüe = lambe with two under-dots and modified left-curl and E-tehta on top

                      nu = nuumen with U-tehta on top
                      nü = nuumen with two under-dots and U-tehta on top
                      nüe = nuumen with two under-dots and modified left-curl and E-tehta on
                      top.

                      The only case where <o> as the final part of complex vowels would
                      _not_ be spelled <w> (modified left-curl) is in the combination <io>,
                      so that <xiong> would be spelled "hwesta with two underdots and
                      O-tehta on top + nwalme". Analogous for <qiong> and <jiong>.

                      I gather these are the spellings your mode suggests for these sounds,
                      and the ones which I will use. Please let me know if I've made any
                      mistakes in my above spellings (just checking whether I've understood
                      the principles correctly).

                      I think we've covered pretty much everything now. (Well, should I come
                      across any problems later, I won't hesitate to bring it up :). Not
                      very likely though. The Chinese sound system is not quite as complex
                      as the English one...)]

                      Hísilómë
                    • j_mach_wust
                      ... All of your samples match perfectly with the suggestion I ve outlined! ... I m sure you wouldn t, and this makes me feel safer! ... j. mach wust
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 21, 2004
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                        Dave 'Hísilómë' wrote:

                        > Please let me know if I've made any
                        > mistakes in my above spellings (just checking whether I've understood
                        > the principles correctly).

                        All of your samples match perfectly with the suggestion I've outlined!

                        > I think we've covered pretty much everything now. (Well, should I come
                        > across any problems later, I won't hesitate to bring it up :).

                        I'm sure you wouldn't, and this makes me feel safer!

                        ---------------------------
                        j. 'mach' wust
                        http://machhezan.tripod.com
                        ---------------------------
                      • hisilome
                        ... ... syllable. ... syllable. ... a ... ... following ... [I have long wondered about one little problem . When using Tengwar to write Chinese,
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 17, 2006
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                          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <machhezan@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >This is a corrected version of the Chinese mode I proposed
                          >yesterday.


                          <...>


                          >
                          > NOTES TO THE CONSONANTS
                          >
                          > (1): vala is only used when the <w> is the first sound of a
                          syllable.
                          > If it follows a consonant, then the <w> is represented by a modified
                          > left-curl above that consonant. If it follows a vowel, then it's
                          > written with an úre that bears that preceding vowel.
                          >
                          > (2): vilya is only used when the <y> is the first sound of a
                          syllable.
                          > If it follows a consonant, then the <y> is represented by two dots
                          > below that consonant. If it follows a vowel, then it's written with
                          a
                          > yanta that bears that preceding vowel.


                          <...>


                          >
                          > COMPLEX VOWELS AND Ü
                          >
                          > All complex vowels and ü are written by combinations of the
                          following
                          > kind:
                          >
                          > y/w/yw + vowel + y/w
                          >
                          > Like this:
                          >
                          > ua = w + a
                          > uo = w + o
                          > uai = w + a + y (2)
                          > ao = a + w
                          > iu = i + w
                          > ou = o + w
                          > iao = y + a + w (2)
                          >
                          > ia = y + a
                          > ie = y + e
                          > io = y + o
                          > iao = y + a + w (2)
                          > ai = a + y
                          > ei = e + y
                          > ui = u + y
                          > uai = w + a + y
                          >
                          > ü = y + u
                          > üe = yw + e


                          [I have long wondered about one little "problem". When using Tengwar
                          to write Chinese, I always spell complex vowels in accordance with
                          your suggestions above, presuming that when you use "u" and "i" you
                          imply that one should use the actual U/I tehta, but when you use "w"
                          and "y", the modified left-curl or uure/two underdots or yanta are
                          employed.

                          This works perfectly fine in most cases, but I believe there are two
                          ambiguous scenarios that involve the combinations "iu" and "ui",
                          featuring _both_ "i/y" and "u/w".

                          If I read your suggestions correctly, for "iu" you suggest "i + u",
                          i.e. "I-tehta on top of uure". Thus, a word like "diu" would be
                          spelt "ando + I-tehta on top of uure". Question: Wouldn't it also
                          comply with your NOTES TO THE CONSONANTS ("If <y> follows a
                          consonant...") to spell "ando with two under-dots and U-tehta on top"?

                          Similarly, I gather you'd spell a word like "tui" as "tinco + U-tehta
                          on top of yanta". In accordance with your rules ("If <w> follows a
                          consonant..."), couldn't one also spell "tinco with modified left-
                          curl and I-tehta on top" (however one would arrange them, from left
                          to right or on top of each other)?

                          In a nutshell, how did you decide in these two special cases that the
                          first part of "iu" and "ui" should be represented with a tehta and
                          the second element with a tengwa, instead of using combinations
                          employing two diacritic signs? I mean, here two choices seem possible
                          (unlike in cases like "ai", "ia", "ei", "ua", "ao [=au =aw]" etc,
                          since for "a" or "e" one has no choice but to use the "normal" A-/E-
                          tehta, and thus naturally resorts to the more "special" spellings
                          for "i/y" or "u/o/w", no matter if they make up the first or second
                          element).

                          Hm, hope this question isn't too obtuse...or confusing...:)]

                          Hisilome
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